My BMW CSL-Restoration-projekt, first pics......

[Ecto]

Hello to all !

Orangener told me that i have to share some pictures.
He made a folder in his photobucket-account for the restauration of my CSL VIN # 2275176 , here are some of them, the work is still in progress:

Please note, if you have any questions about this thread, contact Orangener with PM , please not me, because my english is very poor........

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2150.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2149.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2148.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2147.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2146.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2145.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2144.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2143.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2043.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2042.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2041.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2039.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2038.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2037.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2036.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2035.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2033.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2032.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN2031.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1870.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1869.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1868.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1867.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1865.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1864.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1863.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1862.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1861.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1860.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1859.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1858.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1857.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1842.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1845.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1844.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1841.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/DSCN1840.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/csl4.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/csl3.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/csl2.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg265/Orangener/Guenter%20CSL/csl1.jpg

[DJSimca]

wow .. :) this will be like a new car 8)

[Malc]

Amazing!
You're a lot braver than me
Malc

[x_atlas0]

Wow, not much left of that one. Good luck!

[bert35csi]

Holy coupe! This might as well be a brand new body from the factory which supposedly was available from BMW eons ago.

Bert
72 3.5 CSi
88 M6

[PaulinPa]

Body part number 41 00 1 837 255 (one of 12 different numbers/bodies offered)

[chicane]

Not much left to the imagination. That's pretty amazing any way to cut it. :)

[Orangener]

And mostly done with new (old stock) CSL-parts in thin sheet metall ! :shock:
He (Günter) was collecting them in years, and all of you know how hard (and expensive) it is to get those. :!:

[Ed G]

Much too much work and $$$$ to retain a CSL VIN #!!! Wish you the best though!! Keep posting pics, they are great!

[Orangener]

Here´s a little question, i want to see what´s the opinion of the most of you.
The original colour of this CSL was fjord-blau.
To repaint it in this colour goes of Günter against the grain , he want some tawdry colour, like inka or golf.
What colour would you choose? Or do you say, it have to be fjord, cause thats original?

My favorite is verona !

http://www.bmw-coupeclub.de/Prospekte/Farben%20und%20Preise/Pos%2013/BMW-Die%20Farben%20-%20Die%20Polster_02.jpg
http://www.bmw-coupeclub.de/Prospekte/Farben%20und%20Preise/Pos%2015/BMW-Farben%20und%20Polster-74_02.JPG

[jhjacobs]

Verona!
Metal Flake Verona with heavy clear coat!
Very tawdry!

[Orangener]

Verona!
Metal Flake Verona with heavy clear coat!
Very tawdry!

Uoops: Translation for tawdry is:

# billig
# flitterhaft
# geschmacklos aufgemacht
# grell
# kitschig
# knallig

I dont meant a "tasteless" colour, rather a blazingly , conspicuous , flamboyantly , flaring flaringly incident striking strikingly tone

[PV-ALPINA]

Well, spending that much time and money, together with extremely rare thin metal CSL replacement parts, and then thinking about finishing the CSL in wrong colour!!!!!!!!!!!???????????? Why not adding a sunroof as well...I do not get it. To start with, if he do not like fjord on the CSL (which I can agree upon) then he should have waited for another VIN number with the "correct" colour.

Any car restored to be original will loose a lot of its value if resparyed in wrong colour, that is for sure.

On the other hand, it is his car and he may of course paint it Kermit green if he wants to.

/Johan

[jhjacobs]

Few things spark debate in life more than color. Product color choices or the ridiculous cost of making them have ruined many companies. Then again, taking conventional wisdom would say that Home Depots marketing choice of Orange would be a disaster just like UPS's Brown; oops, the experts are wrong!

I must reject the argument in this case the Gunter's car will loose any value; I rather suspect it was worth next to nothing when he started and it will certainly have value when it is done. Perhaps it will not have the maximum value possible but if he is building this car for himself to drive then he should do what he likes and drive happily to a ripe old age. With the amount of effort and money he is putting in I don't think he is looking to sell his masterpiece for top $$.

Gunter - Kermit Green might be a good choice! I think some 2002's came in this color but I don't think I've seen a coupe like this.

[gazzol]

I agree with jhjacobs on this one, for me the most important thing is that the car is restored and saved from the crusher.

[shanon]

WOW!! :shock:

That's amazing.... build it, drive it & enjoy it!

As for color, paint it the color that will put the biggest smile on your face every time you open the garage door.

Look for a pic here soon, I'm pulling the trigger (literally!) on my paint next weekend.

Beware of 'Umpaloompa' sightings (I'm going w/ Colorado) in the Monterey area next weekend ! :lol:

-shanon

[steve in reno]

After seeing the extent of rust what is the interior like?
If the interior has to be completely redone, what choices does Gunter want for the color?
To make a decision on one with out thinking of the whole package is silly!
Are changes to the wood type and color also being considered? If not HOW original does he want it.
Just because it was from the factory with a particular color, interior or wood, or exterior, does it substantially change it's value? If it's not for sale, make it your car, the way you want it.
Having seen many pic's of our Austrian friends cars, the quality and care in resto speaks for itself.
Whatever Gunter finally decides, I am sure that it will be stunning!
I wish I had his skill, and a few of his parts.
steve

[Orangener]

The interior will be as original as possible, in black, what else......
He has a set of new upholstered Scheel-seats, they look absulotely great, a black roof, a leathericed 38cm sportsteering-wheel with long hub, all the sought expensive goodies......
I´m unenvious............. :twisted: .........just kidding.............

[jonathan49bat]

What a project, these pictures really help to show the hidden parts and complexity.

I do not believe the loss of original colour will in itself dent the value, the car will speak for itself. Any way nice to see it is a labour of love and not profit.

Knowing how fiddly all the interior parts are, will be interested to see the finished outcome so far the metal work looks good especially seeing the fit between front wing and door.

Continued success with the project this will become a bench mark for all future rust boxes.

[PV-ALPINA]

Regarding the colour, of course he might paint it as I mentioned in any colour, including Kermit green.

However, I am surprised that not a single person believe that changing colour of a CSL with change its value??????????!!!!!!!!, OF COURSE it will. It is a hell of a work to repaint it in the original colour again. Why should changing colour of a CSL not affecting its value when it affects the value all other cars??? I would say that changing colour of such a unique car will affect the value more than changing the colour of an ordinary volvo 444.

It seems to be a very serious restoration, no doubt about that, and the quality of the result will most likely be very good. What colour he finishes the car in is really up to him, but any other colour than the colour connected with the CSL vin number will affect the value.

My question then is, will he change the number on the karmann sign on the A pillar indicating the colour as well? I guess that if anyone on this forum buys a CSL, Hoping it is 100% original, he or she wants to know if the car is finished in the correct colour?

/Johan

[jhjacobs]

PV, I doubt anyone will dispute your point that to obtain the maximum possible resell value that the original color should be used; however, there are two very big points you are missing:

1. You are assuming Gunter (and others) are doing this to create "value" which implies selling it. I seriously doubt this is the case. He plans to drive this car and enjoy it.
2. This car had little value when he started and he is bringing back from a certain death. He is to be applauded for his effort even if he paints it Kermit green. I only hope I get to visit him again someday and go for a ride in his wonderful car.

The true value is, as Shanon said, "whatever puts the biggest grin on your face when you open the garage."

How do you feel about Antar putting a 3.5 in his 3.0? Not original!? Cams, 5 speed upgrades, weber conversions, seat upgrades, lowering kits, etc, they are all "improvements" many of us make that detract from the "purest" restoration and thus, surely have a negative impact on our cars resell value. Then again, my coupe is not for sale and I could care less what anyone appraises it's value at - to me it is priceless. I consider Gunter's work to be priceless too. The most important thing in my mind is that we keep these cars on the street and out of the jaws of the car crushers.

[PV-ALPINA]

I am not questioning the work he is doing with the car, great effort and great skill is required and he seems to have it.

No, I am not assuming anyone creating value, I just consider the facts.

Yes, the car had little value when he started (about what you can get from the ID paper and the piece of metal bearing the VIN number I guess). Another question then arises, how much of the car is left, but that is another topic.

Regarding the other improvements you are mentioning, they can easily be converted back to original within a very short time. Paint is the most difficult besides other body modifications, such as wider fenders etc.

To be more precise on your engine question, if the correct engine with correct engine number is missing, then the value is lower than one with the correct engine. 5 speed was an option as I can recall, should be possible to trace with the vin number. If not, you may change it within a day to the original. Seats can be changed very quickly, if not the support has been modified. Of course these improvements will make it more fun to use the car, no doubt about that, and they can all be easily converted back.

I have done all of the improvements you are mentioning + some more on my E9, except the colour change, I bought the correct colour from the beginning...

/Johan

[jonathan49bat]

JJ

Just to clarify my point on the colour, I'm assuming the colour would be a BMW one from the period.

Such a decision would be a personal choice to the person buying the car and this could vary either way!

Knowing that 'the' car was not a rust box could be a far more important a buying decision than whether the colour was correct to VIn. The car having been renovated anyway! The day will approach when it will be difficult to find a good car -

[Jonathan]

I also agree with JJ's argument. And JJ, a super rare color available on '02's (and maybe E9's) was "Florida" green. A little more pale than Kermit, but still would be perhaps the only CSL on the planet in this color.

Jonathan

[dave v. in nc]

First of all, WOW. What great work. On the colour, wont really matter; I think it depends on how fast he will drive. Fast driver: subtle colour. Moderate driver: Hot colour. I'm sure it will be fantastic with whatever colour. Nice work, guys. Dave V. in North Carolina

[DJSimca]

Here´s a little question, i want to see what´s the opinion of the most of you.
The original colour of this CSL was fjord-blau.
To repaint it in this colour goes of Günter against the grain , he want some tawdry colour, like inka or golf.
What colour would you choose? Or do you say, it have to be fjord, cause thats original?



Since you ask ... repaint the car in Fjord ... E9s looks GREAT in that colour 8)

Oh, did I mention that mine is Fjord Metallic :D

[jonathan49bat]

I'm interested to know how this project is coming along - could we have a further update and pictures?

[Orangener]

I'm interested to know how this project is coming along - could we have a further update and pictures?

Günter is on holidays, i will ask him for new pictures when he comes home in two weeks..........

[MPD47]

Any new photos or info?

[ducks]

If the numbers indicate Fjord then there's really no choice as far as values concerned.Since these are so rare, anyone that would have interest in it if you ever sell it will take a heavy markdown if not in original color.

[jonathan49bat]

To me this is such a fascinating project, the work quality is an inspiration - please keep us updated!...

[MPD47]

Any update?

[simoniko]

this REBUILD project , not restoration ! I admire his desire and will!
Please Orangener , shake his hand !

[tmason]

Hi
I was wondering if you have any photos of the frame under the ORC near the rear wheels.I removered my ORC and discovered some rust so I punched some holes in the sheet metal the size of a beer can and noticed some rusting away of sheet metal.So I cut some metal to fit and getting ready to weld in these before welding new sheet metal over the holes.I'm doing this just to reinforce these spots. Thanks for any help, Tim

[blumax]

But must say--the BLUMAX is Atlantik Blau and I've enjoyed and never tired of that so called conservative--now for 37 years--and every time its displayed at Cars 'n Coffee here in SoCal there are car guys who are very attracted to the color. I believe a dark color such as Atlantik (but not black) actually displays tha shape of the E-9 in its best light and at the same time provides an excellent backdrop for all the "brightwork" on these cars.

MY belief has been confirmed in recent times by at least two prominent automotive designers who has each spent several years in Europe--one with Opel and the other with Porsche--each having independently offered that opinion or observation in recent years.

Maybe not tawdry--like Golf--but it really wears well with time.

[Orangener]

this REBUILD project , not restoration ! I admire his desire and will!
Please Orangener , shake his hand !

I´ll see him tomorrow ! :D

Thanks Simeon !

[Orangener]

Picture-Update :


All new pics you find with this link : http://s984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/GruberAndreas/Guenters%20fjord%20CSL/?start=all

The old pictures you can see at the beginning of this thread !

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/GruberAndreas/Guenters%20fjord%20CSL/Ansichtfront1.jpg

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/GruberAndreas/Guenters%20fjord%20CSL/Ansichtseitelinks.jpg

[FlyWulf]

I was once told that anything is restorable and it looks like this group is going to prove it.

I wish you nothing but success!

Cheers,

Ed

[Orangener]

It´s his sixth E9 restoration, but this time he produce his masterpiece ! Unbe****inglievable where he gets all those new parts ! :shock:

[coupe2800cs]

Someone once said " a new car takes 12 times the energy, and expense today to produce, vs. a car built 25 years ago ", never mind a better than factory built car....!