Values of E9: German CSL sold - asked price was 65 000 euro

CSL 1973

Well-Known Member
Messages
459
Reaction score
29
Location
Sweden
Just a reflection; in one of the biggest databases for European second hand cars there are currently 5 BMW 3.0 CSL for sale:

www.mobile.de (BMW/Andere/Then type: CSL)

Price range:

Serie 2 CSL 12/72 not renovated - asked price 27 500 euro

Serie 2 CSL 1/73 renovated - asked price 69 500 euro (sold)
Serie 1 (carb) CSL 1/72 renovated - asked price 75 000 euro
Serie 2 CSL 1/73 renovated - asked price 92 500 euro
Serie 3.5 CSL 12/75 renovated - asked price 125 000 euro (the very last CSL built with VIN 4355057)

I think we can see a trend in market for at least the CSL. Not renovated cars could be reasonally priced but for cars in very good condition/renovated or historically interesting cars with documentation and matching numbers, the price could be very high.

As said in a previous post, so far the highest price paid for a CSL is about 120 000 euro (£80 000 GB) at the Christies auction in 2008.

Cheers
 

CSL 1973

Well-Known Member
Messages
459
Reaction score
29
Location
Sweden
Just a reflection; in one of the biggest databases for European second hand cars there are currently 5 BMW 3.0 CSL for sale:

www.mobile.de (BMW/Andere/Then type: CSL)

Price range:

Serie 2 CSL 12/72 not renovated - asked price 27 500 euro

Serie 2 CSL 1/73 renovated - asked price 69 500 euro (sold)
Serie 1 (carb) CSL 1/72 renovated - asked price 75 000 euro
Serie 2 CSL 1/73 renovated - asked price 92 500 euro
Serie 3.5 CSL 12/75 renovated - asked price 125 000 euro (the very last CSL built with VIN 4355057)

I think we can see a trend in market for at least the CSL. Not renovated cars could be reasonally priced but for cars in very good condition/renovated or historically interesting cars with documentation and matching numbers, the price could be very high.

As said in a previous post, so far the highest price paid for a CSL is about 120 000 euro (£80 000 GB) at the Christies auction in 2008.

Cheers
 

timt

Well-Known Member
Messages
79
Reaction score
0
Location
Wokingham, UK
To add to the price spread and to emphasis the point that the price is ultimately set by the value of the car to the buyer and the desire of the seller to accept that price, and in support of some of the earlier posts on this thread:

An ex Falz Alpina was put up for auction here, in the UK, mid February this year - guide price UKP 200K circa $286K at today's xrate. This is the car campaigned by Peter Werke i the USA until sold via John Starkey into the UK in 2007 - price then $175K and price paid was very close (according to the buyer who was today's seller), that was circa UKP 87.5K mid 2007. The car was completely rebuilt to its original Falz Alpina spec based on photographic records, quality apparently exceptional. I haven't seen it but others have (obviously!) and examples of the rebuilder's work have been featured over here - look up QM Engineering, Brackley, if interested.

John Starkey ad http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/for_sale/Batmobile.html

February ad http://auction.simoncharles-auctioneers.co.uk/race_car_auction/BMW_CSL.asp

The period pictures of the car in Falz Alpina colours are the same in each advertisement. NB I believe the VIN in the Starkey ad is a typo and should be 2210270 as per the actual car and all the records accessible on the internet relate to this number.

The hammer went down at UKP 187K and the car was not sold. However, I spoke with the seller very early March and he was negotiating a post auction sale and reasonably confident he would be successful, so let's assume very slightly North of UKP 187K or $267K.

So here we have a CSL (let's assume) sold for Euro 65K late last year (link in the thread) at the then xrate giving circa $91K and UKP 51K, the Group 2 re-creation (link in the thread) sold at UKP 71.5K circa $102K and the Falz Alpina at UKP 187K or $267.

The CSL appears to be very well presented but isn't "original" for a late 1972 build - the wheels (possibly an option?) and the wing set are abvious changes but do they matter? Easily correctable if required by a purist buyer. But the price gap to the Group 2 re-creation is very significantly less than the cost of the work to the Group 2 re-creation car ... by anyone's rates! The price gap from the re-creation car to the Falz Alpina is more significant (!); cost of work is ilkely to have been greater but primarily one is a "genuine" ex racer of the period with supporting provanence and one is a current day recreation with no racing history. I'm not denigrating the re-creation and would love to have it given the funds but its lack of "history" limits its attraction to certain potential buyers. If it's raced in the period series for which it qualifies, and is successful, no doubt its value will increase but it will never compete with one of the ex-racers of the 1970s; this may be an anachronism to some but that's the way it is.

Add in demand versus supply on the day, quality, economic and market conditions, and the desire of the seller to either realise anything reasonable or a minimum target, and we have variations in prices. Whilst I'm interested in those prices it is only for interest's sake, they have little meaning to most of us whatever the age and state of the car as when the time comes to sell or to buy the variable factors relevant at the time will apply. Yes, people will look at recent price history to bracket expectation but the final price will be what it's worth to the parties involved at the time and if there are two or more buyers then the price will be higher.

It keeps many people interested and I'm pleased, and although I'm emotionally attached to my car I can't get emotional about the prices of others.
 

timt

Well-Known Member
Messages
79
Reaction score
0
Location
Wokingham, UK
To add to the price spread and to emphasis the point that the price is ultimately set by the value of the car to the buyer and the desire of the seller to accept that price, and in support of some of the earlier posts on this thread:

An ex Falz Alpina was put up for auction here, in the UK, mid February this year - guide price UKP 200K circa $286K at today's xrate. This is the car campaigned by Peter Werke i the USA until sold via John Starkey into the UK in 2007 - price then $175K and price paid was very close (according to the buyer who was today's seller), that was circa UKP 87.5K mid 2007. The car was completely rebuilt to its original Falz Alpina spec based on photographic records, quality apparently exceptional. I haven't seen it but others have (obviously!) and examples of the rebuilder's work have been featured over here - look up QM Engineering, Brackley, if interested.

John Starkey ad http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/for_sale/Batmobile.html

February ad http://auction.simoncharles-auctioneers.co.uk/race_car_auction/BMW_CSL.asp

The period pictures of the car in Falz Alpina colours are the same in each advertisement. NB I believe the VIN in the Starkey ad is a typo and should be 2210270 as per the actual car and all the records accessible on the internet relate to this number.

The hammer went down at UKP 187K and the car was not sold. However, I spoke with the seller very early March and he was negotiating a post auction sale and reasonably confident he would be successful, so let's assume very slightly North of UKP 187K or $267K.

So here we have a CSL (let's assume) sold for Euro 65K late last year (link in the thread) at the then xrate giving circa $91K and UKP 51K, the Group 2 re-creation (link in the thread) sold at UKP 71.5K circa $102K and the Falz Alpina at UKP 187K or $267.

The CSL appears to be very well presented but isn't "original" for a late 1972 build - the wheels (possibly an option?) and the wing set are abvious changes but do they matter? Easily correctable if required by a purist buyer. But the price gap to the Group 2 re-creation is very significantly less than the cost of the work to the Group 2 re-creation car ... by anyone's rates! The price gap from the re-creation car to the Falz Alpina is more significant (!); cost of work is ilkely to have been greater but primarily one is a "genuine" ex racer of the period with supporting provanence and one is a current day recreation with no racing history. I'm not denigrating the re-creation and would love to have it given the funds but its lack of "history" limits its attraction to certain potential buyers. If it's raced in the period series for which it qualifies, and is successful, no doubt its value will increase but it will never compete with one of the ex-racers of the 1970s; this may be an anachronism to some but that's the way it is.

Add in demand versus supply on the day, quality, economic and market conditions, and the desire of the seller to either realise anything reasonable or a minimum target, and we have variations in prices. Whilst I'm interested in those prices it is only for interest's sake, they have little meaning to most of us whatever the age and state of the car as when the time comes to sell or to buy the variable factors relevant at the time will apply. Yes, people will look at recent price history to bracket expectation but the final price will be what it's worth to the parties involved at the time and if there are two or more buyers then the price will be higher.

It keeps many people interested and I'm pleased, and although I'm emotionally attached to my car I can't get emotional about the prices of others.
 

gazzol

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Reaction score
113
Location
Preston, England
EDIT I Should have read timt's post ^^^^

Tom M said:
Not to question the build quality and overall finish of the car, but one wonders what the car would have brought (more or less?) if it had been correctly restored.
In my opinion the car would have made far less, at least here in the U.K where it appears that home grown cars i.e. Jaguars + Austin Healeys etc etc have rocketed in value whilst foriegn cars with a few notable exceptions appear to be grossley under valued when compared to the same cars over in Europe. However, in the UK at least cars which have race pedigree or at least the ability to compete in classic race series events no matter what their nationality command far far above the value of a nice road car.

The owner of this car (thats hin on the right)
P1030128.jpg

was at an auction in Manchester (UK) recently and witnessed a groupe 2 CSL built by a private team (in the 1970's) and never driven by any one famous or paticularly well known and it fetched over £180,000. At which point he went home and opened a bottle of wine. His car is the genuine article from 1976 as campained by Schnitzer. The car dissapeared for a decade or two and the current owner found the car in Malaysia.
BMW Germany have told him that there is a cheque waiting for him if he ever decides to sell it! He just has to name his price. Lucky B*****D
 

gazzol

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Reaction score
113
Location
Preston, England
EDIT I Should have read timt's post ^^^^

Tom M said:
Not to question the build quality and overall finish of the car, but one wonders what the car would have brought (more or less?) if it had been correctly restored.
In my opinion the car would have made far less, at least here in the U.K where it appears that home grown cars i.e. Jaguars + Austin Healeys etc etc have rocketed in value whilst foriegn cars with a few notable exceptions appear to be grossley under valued when compared to the same cars over in Europe. However, in the UK at least cars which have race pedigree or at least the ability to compete in classic race series events no matter what their nationality command far far above the value of a nice road car.

The owner of this car (thats hin on the right)
P1030128.jpg

was at an auction in Manchester (UK) recently and witnessed a groupe 2 CSL built by a private team (in the 1970's) and never driven by any one famous or paticularly well known and it fetched over £180,000. At which point he went home and opened a bottle of wine. His car is the genuine article from 1976 as campained by Schnitzer. The car dissapeared for a decade or two and the current owner found the car in Malaysia.
BMW Germany have told him that there is a cheque waiting for him if he ever decides to sell it! He just has to name his price. Lucky B*****D
 

gazzol

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Reaction score
113
Location
Preston, England
timt said:
An ex Falz Alpina was put up for auction here, in the UK, mid February this year - guide price UKP 200K circa $286K at today's xrate. This is the car campaigned by Peter Werke i the USA until sold via John Starkey into the UK in 2007 - price then $175K and price paid was very close (according to the buyer who was today's seller), that was circa UKP 87.5K mid 2007. The car was completely rebuilt to its original Falz Alpina spec based on photographic records, quality apparently exceptional. I haven't seen it but others have (obviously!) and examples of the rebuilder's work have been featured over here - look up QM Engineering, Brackley, if interested.

timt do you know if that was this car or not ???

P1030136.jpg
 

gazzol

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Reaction score
113
Location
Preston, England
timt said:
An ex Falz Alpina was put up for auction here, in the UK, mid February this year - guide price UKP 200K circa $286K at today's xrate. This is the car campaigned by Peter Werke i the USA until sold via John Starkey into the UK in 2007 - price then $175K and price paid was very close (according to the buyer who was today's seller), that was circa UKP 87.5K mid 2007. The car was completely rebuilt to its original Falz Alpina spec based on photographic records, quality apparently exceptional. I haven't seen it but others have (obviously!) and examples of the rebuilder's work have been featured over here - look up QM Engineering, Brackley, if interested.

timt do you know if that was this car or not ???

P1030136.jpg
 

timt

Well-Known Member
Messages
79
Reaction score
0
Location
Wokingham, UK
Gazzol, the Falz Alpina was the car in the following link in the colours shown http://www.racingsportscars.com/chassis/2210270.html

If you trawl around the rss site you should find the other car, I think I spotted it briefly but have just timed out for dinner, sorry! Driver is much less known but I think this might tell us that the values of some (all?) of the better known cars will be much, much higher. So, of the man with the Gosser Beir car, very lucky B****. I think I saw this car at a CC meet at Silverstone not long after it was "recovered" but may have been a different one; was it restored by Zaprace?

There are more about now so lucky us to be able to see them again. I'm just envious, one could say "green" !!
 

timt

Well-Known Member
Messages
79
Reaction score
0
Location
Wokingham, UK
Gazzol, the Falz Alpina was the car in the following link in the colours shown http://www.racingsportscars.com/chassis/2210270.html

If you trawl around the rss site you should find the other car, I think I spotted it briefly but have just timed out for dinner, sorry! Driver is much less known but I think this might tell us that the values of some (all?) of the better known cars will be much, much higher. So, of the man with the Gosser Beir car, very lucky B****. I think I saw this car at a CC meet at Silverstone not long after it was "recovered" but may have been a different one; was it restored by Zaprace?

There are more about now so lucky us to be able to see them again. I'm just envious, one could say "green" !!
 

gazzol

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Reaction score
113
Location
Preston, England
timt said:
Gazzol, the Falz Alpina was the car in the following link in the colours shown http://www.racingsportscars.com/chassis/2210270.html

If you trawl around the rss site you should find the other car, I think I spotted it briefly but have just timed out for dinner, sorry! Driver is much less known but I think this might tell us that the values of some (all?) of the better known cars will be much, much higher. So, of the man with the Gosser Beir car, very lucky B****. I think I saw this car at a CC meet at Silverstone not long after it was "recovered" but may have been a different one; was it restored by Zaprace?

There are more about now so lucky us to be able to see them again. I'm just envious, one could say "green" !!

The reason I asked was that the car in the picture I posted was (obviously) a Faltz Alpina and that the owner (who I've spoke to on a couple of occasions but don't know that well) hadn't had the car running all that long. The owner of the group 5 car I know very well as he has a construction company and I look after his work vans in the garage I work at. The owner of the Faltz car I posted looks after the Group 5 Schnitzer with the exception of a few jobs like the engine rebuild which was done last year before the car entered the Le Mans classic. The engine was rebuilt by one of the original M division Engine builders who is retired but agreed to do it.
I'm not sure who restored the car when it was brought to the UK but it was pretty poor job as there were areas of rust which had been painted over and it had to be done again when this was discovered.
 

gazzol

Well-Known Member
Messages
466
Reaction score
113
Location
Preston, England
timt said:
Gazzol, the Falz Alpina was the car in the following link in the colours shown http://www.racingsportscars.com/chassis/2210270.html

If you trawl around the rss site you should find the other car, I think I spotted it briefly but have just timed out for dinner, sorry! Driver is much less known but I think this might tell us that the values of some (all?) of the better known cars will be much, much higher. So, of the man with the Gosser Beir car, very lucky B****. I think I saw this car at a CC meet at Silverstone not long after it was "recovered" but may have been a different one; was it restored by Zaprace?

There are more about now so lucky us to be able to see them again. I'm just envious, one could say "green" !!

The reason I asked was that the car in the picture I posted was (obviously) a Faltz Alpina and that the owner (who I've spoke to on a couple of occasions but don't know that well) hadn't had the car running all that long. The owner of the group 5 car I know very well as he has a construction company and I look after his work vans in the garage I work at. The owner of the Faltz car I posted looks after the Group 5 Schnitzer with the exception of a few jobs like the engine rebuild which was done last year before the car entered the Le Mans classic. The engine was rebuilt by one of the original M division Engine builders who is retired but agreed to do it.
I'm not sure who restored the car when it was brought to the UK but it was pretty poor job as there were areas of rust which had been painted over and it had to be done again when this was discovered.
 

RonP

Well-Known Member
Messages
495
Reaction score
12
Location
Sunset Beach, Ca
Wow, thank you for all of the information on sold CSLs. I have been thinking of selling mine, but very hesitant about what I perceive as the value and what people here see it as. It's refreshing to see that someone took the time to research this.

Onto the actual sold car....What color is that? Is it supposed to be Golf? Is it a real Bat? Seems like a pretty well sorted car, but missing the correct seats, steering wheel, and wheels. I do like the fact that he has the right tires on it.
 

RonP

Well-Known Member
Messages
495
Reaction score
12
Location
Sunset Beach, Ca
Wow, thank you for all of the information on sold CSLs. I have been thinking of selling mine, but very hesitant about what I perceive as the value and what people here see it as. It's refreshing to see that someone took the time to research this.

Onto the actual sold car....What color is that? Is it supposed to be Golf? Is it a real Bat? Seems like a pretty well sorted car, but missing the correct seats, steering wheel, and wheels. I do like the fact that he has the right tires on it.
 

2275xxx

Well-Known Member
Messages
186
Reaction score
79
Location
Lake Geneva
The wheels on the yellow CSL are BMW Motorsport wheels, an optional feature. They were labelled "BMW - Mahle".
The Recaro Idealsitz-S could also be ordered from BMW Motorsport.
 

2275xxx

Well-Known Member
Messages
186
Reaction score
79
Location
Lake Geneva
The wheels on the yellow CSL are BMW Motorsport wheels, an optional feature. They were labelled "BMW - Mahle".
The Recaro Idealsitz-S could also be ordered from BMW Motorsport.
 

CSL 1973

Well-Known Member
Messages
459
Reaction score
29
Location
Sweden
It is always interesting to look at the increasing values of nice E9 cars. A well documented and late 3.0 CSi in good condition costs nowadays about 25 000 euro.

The 3.0 CSL is placed in another price range. Personally I don't see why the CSL should be much cheaper compared to a Porsche Carrera RS from 1973 or a MB 190 SL. The Carrera RS is normally placed in the price range of 150 000 - 250 000 euro and I think the CSL will reach these values in 5-6 years time.

For us who keep our cars year in and year out, the increase value discussions are just interesting reading. What I regret is that I did not buy more CSLs some 10-15 years ago when the price tags were around 3000-4000 euro but it is always easy to play last week's lotto.

Cheers
 

CSL 1973

Well-Known Member
Messages
459
Reaction score
29
Location
Sweden
It is always interesting to look at the increasing values of nice E9 cars. A well documented and late 3.0 CSi in good condition costs nowadays about 25 000 euro.

The 3.0 CSL is placed in another price range. Personally I don't see why the CSL should be much cheaper compared to a Porsche Carrera RS from 1973 or a MB 190 SL. The Carrera RS is normally placed in the price range of 150 000 - 250 000 euro and I think the CSL will reach these values in 5-6 years time.

For us who keep our cars year in and year out, the increase value discussions are just interesting reading. What I regret is that I did not buy more CSLs some 10-15 years ago when the price tags were around 3000-4000 euro but it is always easy to play last week's lotto.

Cheers
 

timt

Well-Known Member
Messages
79
Reaction score
0
Location
Wokingham, UK
Gazzol, I rechecked my "history" and it was an ex Luigi car I saw early after its acquisition over here and later restoration. Zaprace have done some cars as have others (sorry, bit of an obvious statement!) including Tech-Speed, QM Engineering and the people you know. It's good that the expertise is about but it's at a price. Are your contacts a business or just private individuals managing a few cars?

RonP, you ask is the Golf CSL a "real Bat" - answer no in that its build preceded the Bats, its VIN shows as late 1972, and it's carrying the 3 post wing uprights first adopted for IMSA in 1976 - may have been 1975 as I haven't checked and someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I suspect we all had a 2nd car (prefer CSL) that could be held as an investment but I suspect that the only true investments are those with a "valuable" history; that counts out the majority. For those that do reach very high values few will recoup the costs incurred unless acquired in mint condition and stored ... and I don't approve of that! Better driven, seen and enjoyed - in any sequence.
 

timt

Well-Known Member
Messages
79
Reaction score
0
Location
Wokingham, UK
Gazzol, I rechecked my "history" and it was an ex Luigi car I saw early after its acquisition over here and later restoration. Zaprace have done some cars as have others (sorry, bit of an obvious statement!) including Tech-Speed, QM Engineering and the people you know. It's good that the expertise is about but it's at a price. Are your contacts a business or just private individuals managing a few cars?

RonP, you ask is the Golf CSL a "real Bat" - answer no in that its build preceded the Bats, its VIN shows as late 1972, and it's carrying the 3 post wing uprights first adopted for IMSA in 1976 - may have been 1975 as I haven't checked and someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I suspect we all had a 2nd car (prefer CSL) that could be held as an investment but I suspect that the only true investments are those with a "valuable" history; that counts out the majority. For those that do reach very high values few will recoup the costs incurred unless acquired in mint condition and stored ... and I don't approve of that! Better driven, seen and enjoyed - in any sequence.
 
Top