1973 e3 will not crank

[amg5872]

Hi, all. I'm having an odd issue with my Bavaria and thought I would throw it out here. A few weeks ago I was out driving the Bav. When I got back in to come home the car would not start at all. Had dash lights but no crank at all when I turned the key. Fortunately I was on enough of a hill to pop start it and get it home. I finally spent some time with it today. I had a battery tender hooked up overnight so battery was fully charged. First thing today I cleaned the battery terminals. Battery reads pretty strong at 12.94 volts. I got in and turned the key to on position. Dash lights looked strong. I turned on the headlights and those looked strong. But as soon as I turn the key to they on/crank position, I lose all signs of power. No dash lights, no headlights, cannot crank again. I checked the battery with the multimeter right after this and battery reads 12.84 so still pretty strong. Any thoughts on what is going on here? Perhaps a short that is misdirecting all of the current the battery is sending out when I try to crank? Thanks for any help!

PS: If anyone wants to unload an e9 I am still looking...

 

[stphers]

Try taking the black cable of a set of jumper cables and going from the negative post to a good ground connection on the engine This will test if you have a good ground between the eng and battery I always ground out from the battery to the eng, from the battery to the chassis and from the eng to the chassis a little overkill but no issues with grounds if no different pull the small black lead off the starter and check how much voltage is going to it while cranking another suggestion, if you don't already have a relay for the starter, put one in. The voltage drop thru the ign switch is quite high and besides the ign switch doesn't need to carry that load. If everything is ok crappy starter?

Good luck thanks, Rick

 

[amg5872]

Thank you for the reply. I just tried your suggestion with the jumper cable. As the car sat from my last effort, I got no dash lights, no click when I turned the key, nothing. I disconnected the negative terminal from the battery and then used the black jumper cable to run from the negative battery terminal to a spot on the engine block. No change. No lights, no click, nothing. What's weird is I then took the jumper cable off and reconnected the negative terminal connector. I go back in the car and now I have strong dash lights and strong headlights. I watched the engine bay as I tried to crank and I saw a pretty bright spark at the positive battery terminal (normal?) and heard a click that I believe came from the front right of engine bay (where the starter is, I presume?). I'll try your suggestion about the lead on the starter tomorrow. And will look into adding a relay. Dumb question (I am a beginner), but where is the starter on a 73 Bavaria? Thanks.

 

[HB Chris]

Starter is on driver side below manifolds. And additional ground cable from valve cover to fender helped on my e9.

 

[JMinPDX]

Typically starters don’t just drop dead without warning. I’d suspect the ignition switch. Easiest way to know for sure is to wire a remote starter button from the battery to the starter to see if the starter cranks. (wired from positive side to small connector of starter I believe but some here can confirm) If it does crank you likely need an ignition switch.

Ignition switch:

 

[HB Chris]

Connector on starter is at 6:00, remove the wire and just jump a wire from battery positive to that spade, just touch and release.

 

[mulberryworks]

Well, if you get a spark on the positive terminal, you've got a poor connection. Is this terminal formed on the cable or is it the type that is clamped on? I've had trouble with corrosion inside the clamp-on version. Certainly, you're getting good advice on getting good grounds but the positive has to be solid as well.
When I first read your symptoms I thought you might have a defective starter solenoid that's shorting the power to ground instead of sending it to the starter. The fact that the lights continue to be dim after a start attempt push me towards thinking you've got a defective positive connection somewhere.
You don't need to get a whole new starter switch to test whether your starter switch is bad, a simple push button switch with connectors on its leads will do as all you need to do is get 12 volts to the terminal on the solenoid at the top of the starter which is unfortunately hard to reach.

 

[HB Chris]

Well, if you get a spark on the positive terminal, you've got a poor connection. Is this terminal formed on the cable or is it the type that is clamped on? I've had trouble with corrosion inside the clamp-on version. Certainly, you're getting good advice on getting good grounds but the positive has to be solid as well.
When I first read your symptoms I thought you might have a defective starter solenoid that's shorting the power to ground instead of sending it to the starter. The fact that the lights continue to be dim after a start attempt push me towards thinking you've got a defective positive connection somewhere.
You don't need to get a whole new starter switch to test whether your starter switch is bad, a simple push button switch with connectors on its leads will do as all you need to do is get 12 volts to the terminal on the solenoid at the top of the starter which is unfortunately hard to reach.

Ian, Starter is activated by lower spade, upper spade at 12:00 sends power to coil only when cranking to bypass ballast resistor.

 

[mulberryworks]

Ian, Starter is activated by lower spade, upper spade at 12:00 sends power to coil only when cranking to bypass ballast resistor.

Yes, thanks for the clarification to my post, I was referring only to the location of the solenoid itself since the OP seemed to be unfamiliar with the location of the starter. I should made my post more specific to make things as accurate as possible.

 

[amg5872]

Thanks all for the additional thoughts. I will report back once I’ve done more troubleshooting. I did notice that in the last few months before it failed that starting was getting a little tough. I’d turn the key and the car would not just start cranking there would be a couple of sounds like thing were rotating only fractionally and then finally it would start turning over.

 

[amg5872]

Well, if you get a spark on the positive terminal, you've got a poor connection. Is this terminal formed on the cable or is it the type that is clamped on? I've had trouble with corrosion inside the clamp-on version. Certainly, you're getting good advice on getting good grounds but the positive has to be solid as well.
When I first read your symptoms I thought you might have a defective starter solenoid that's shorting the power to ground instead of sending it to the starter. The fact that the lights continue to be dim after a start attempt push me towards thinking you've got a defective positive connection somewhere.
You don't need to get a whole new starter switch to test whether your starter switch is bad, a simple push button switch with connectors on its leads will do as all you need to do is get 12 volts to the terminal on the solenoid at the top of the starter which is unfortunately hard to reach.

The terminal connectors are the type that are formed on the terminal. They are not clamped on. The Slide Over the terminals and then you tighten with a bolt. So I think that’s what you mean by formed on the terminal. Thanks.

 

[mulberryworks]

Thanks all for the additional thoughts. I will report back once I’ve done more troubleshooting. I did notice that in the last few months before it failed that starting was getting a little tough. I’d turn the key and the car would not just start cranking there would be a couple of sounds like thing were rotating only fractionally and then finally it would start turning over.

Hmm, low amperage from a poor connection or the solenoid was sticky and not pushing the starter gear forward to engage the teeth on the flywheel. The latter is usually heard as the starter motor turning, a hum, then it will engage and the engine will start to crank over. I don't think that's what's going on. I had a starter in my '83 Mercedes 300SD that would refuse to start sometimes because of a bad solenoid, but it was all or nothing. I replaced the starter with a rebuilt one.

Years ago when all I owned was a '67 Beetle, my tail lights wouldn't work. I tested the voltage and it was 12v at the bulb terminals. The bulbs tested good and would light when supplied with 12v with test probes. I cleaned and recleaned all the terminals. No good. Finally, I tested the voltage with the bulb in the circuit. Almost no voltage at all. Huh? It turned out the fuse, which is the type with a bit of metal wrapped around a ceramic core, was dirty and wasn't allowing any current to flow. I could see voltage, but as soon as any draw was applied, the voltage would drop to almost zero meaning there wasn't enough power to light the bulb.

Short of an odd problem with your solenoid, I suspect this is the root cause of your issue. A bad connection somewhere. There's a small chance that it's a battery problem. Testing the voltage isn't a good way to see if your battery is in good shape, testing it under load is the best way. Most auto shops will test your battery for free. Otherwise, I'd think that checking all ground points and replacing any cables that are suspect should do the trick.

 

[amg5872]

Did not get to do too much troubleshooting today. But I did take the battery in to an auto parts store and they tested it under load and said it checked out fine.

 

[Ohmess]

I had corrosion inside the cable from my battery to the starter. This sharply increased the resistance in the cable and dropped the voltage going to the starter. You can measure this resistance, but you need to disconnect it to do so.

If you can see green corrision where the cable meets the battery terminal connector (I could see this on mine), just replace the cable. They are relatively cheap.

 

[stphers]

If you cut back any wires to install a new connector, have a close look at the color of the copper wire, if it has turned black or is very dark, that bit of wiring has been overheated and is old and should be replaced as it will also give you a huge voltage drop

Thanks, Rick

 

[amg5872]

Good news, I think I'm on the cusp of a breakthrough with this issue. I work from home and couldn't help going to the garage to tinker a bit during my lunch hour. I had taken out the battery to get it tested at AutoZone. So I put the battery back in and hooked up the terminals. I started just looking at the connector to the positive terminal, and I noticed that where the two large wires branch off of the positive terminal connector (pretty much at the terminal), the insulation on one of the wires had kind of peeled up a bit. I pushed it back down where it went and kind of tucked it in. I did not think for a second that this had anything to do with the problem. After a few minutes of looking around I was headed inside and then I thought I'd just turn the key to the ON position to confirm I had headlights and dash lights. Sure enough I did (though for the headlights I could only get high beams until I wiggled the arm a bit to get the regular headlights to go on. Again, about to head inside, I decided to try to start the Bav even though I was sure it was pointless. To my utter shock, the car cranked faster and stronger than it had cranked in years. I turned the key back to ON, and then cranked a couple more times, but before the car could start I saw a large spark from the positive terminal of the battery and immediately lost all power. I am now wondering if there is some arc-ing or shorting (not sure either of those is the correct term) going on at the positive terminal where I saw the spark. I'm also wondering if the headlight switch/arm has something to do with it, because I could've sworn that a couple of days ago after I had charged up the battery, I turned the key to ON and had dash lights. I tried to turn the headlights on and immediately lost power when I pulled the headlight switch. Very interesting. I'd welcome any thoughts on these developments. And sorry to write so much but I have found it helpful looking at past threads when there is a lot of context. So I'm hoping that writing a bit more could help others down the road.

 

[stphers]

I would throw those battery connections over the fence into the neighbor's pool They look terrible, broken wiring at the connections and probably not making much of a connection under that rust Cut back the wiring and solder on some larger lugs for the small wires so they can have the battery cable end bolts go thru them and only have the one main starter cable fit under the hold down bracket on the cable end OR get a new battery cable with an integrated end already on it and use the clamp bolt to hold ( your newly soldered lugs ) all the small lines

Or do it really proper, have just one heavy line beside the starter cable coming off the battery to a + positive junction block where all the smaller wires can come together away from the battery

Make sure the - negative side is nice and clean as well, if both posts look like the one in the picture, that's your starting issues

Thanks, Rick

 

[Ohmess]

Yes, Stphers beat me to the punch. Those wires are green, which means they are corroded inside. To make matters worse, the wire is merely sandwiched in between two plates.

You want a wire molded into the terminal. This baby is available from Rock Auto for $7.29: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12212477&cc=1012497&pt=2500&jsn=1470 and has the cable molded into the terminal. The extra wire coming off the terminal is designed to be spliced into other direct to battery connections, using a proper butt splice. Where you have more than one connection to the terminal, you can install a ring terminal onto the end of the second wire and install it onto the bolt holding the terminal on.

These are cheap fixes that will save you a lot of grief.

 

[amg5872]

Success! At least for the moment. And stphers and Omess you guys are on the money. I think this thread would have been much shorter had I posted a picture of the battery terminals to start. After seeing how all power was lost when I had a big spark at the positive terminal I disconnected the battery and took apart the wires coming into the positive terminal, cleaned the wires and the insides of the clamp with wire brush, reconnected everything, and now she starts up like a champ. I’m hoping that was indeed the issue. Omess thank you for the link I am going to grab one of those and maybe address the negative terminal as well. It was interesting to me how issue mimicked a dying starter (to me anyway) as the car was having trouble starting the last year or so and the starter would seem to labor. But in retrospect that makes sense as the battery connections degraded over time and the voltage to the starter was waning. Stphrs it‘s funny you say that about the pool because my neighbors pool is about 10 ft away and is separated by a fence…

 

[amg5872]

Thank you all for the input along the way!