BMW E9 - 3D scanning models of body(parts)

[xjan99]

Hi

Long story short - it will cost me roughly 2500 EUR to have these 3D scans made + to purchase the 3D files already done for sharing. Would there be interest in a "co-funding" approach to this?

If you have seen my build thread, you have seen my coachbuilder made the 3D scans of a good E9 underside (and mine) + is now offering he can also 3D scan the OEM old-stock never installed front and rear fenders/panels + nose panel + tail panel and CSL apron I have. I am thinking this could be of use to many - either for reference measurements, 3D work mock-ups and even creating new products for these cars. Hell, some might even use these to start manufacturing new front fenders before BMW classic produces any . The scanner used is with a very high accuracy and outcome would be STL files (for Solidworks / Solid Edge / Fusion 360 etc programs).

I will start by throwing in 500EUR myself to support this, seems the community could benefit greatly. And if there are parts that you see should also be scanned, let me know.

PS! Also, there is a possibility to later produce some products by the same company (different materials 3D printed, moulds for carbon etc, laser cutting and bending...). They are working closely with https://www.kalmarautomotive.com/ (similar approach to Singer Porsches) and creating their parts for instance here in Estonia.

 

[Stan]

Crowdsourcing

 

[Krzysztof]

Interesting initiative.

I was proposing in the past to build a database of 3D models (coming from scan or design) but the idea was not followed.

Do you know what might be the cost of a "brick" to make your great idea some true?

 

[xjan99]

Interesting initiative.

I was proposing in the past to build a database of 3D models (coming from scan or design) but the idea was not followed.

Do you know what might be the cost of a "brick" to make your great idea some true?

Sorry Krzysztof, I am not quite understanding your brick question . Please elaborate

 

[tferrer]

Sorry Krzysztof, I am not quite understanding your brick question . Please elaborate

Perhaps he's referring to a panel "buck"....

How to make a Buck?? - All MetalShaping

How to make a Buck?? Buck Building

www.allmetalshaping.com

 

[Wes]

I'd be interested but my lawyer brain says come back a couple of steps first. Let's assume BMW have no issue with making the parts. My suggestion is if we think this has legs we need to set up a structure for who actually owns the files and derivative material. My suggestion is ownership could be to the Forum. Members could be charged a small fee with proceeds going back into either running the forum or scanning/making other parts.

Discussed something long these lines a long time back with @Markos, when he was 3D printing.

 

[Gazz]

My guess is that if you ask BMW they will simply say no. Why would they say yes? Which doesn't mean it can't be done, it just means there may be some legal hoops to jump through.
I would be okay with a levy on members to create a 3D file data base but who would administer it? Dan, MTW, et al have real lives away from the forum. Well maybe not Dan.

 

[Markos]

Since my name came up, I’ll say that I’m not interested. I mean no offense, but I just don’t see any utility with the proposal.

If you want composite panels, creat a mold the same way that any glass or carbon shop would. Even if you had the 3D file, it would result in a CNC generated foam fender that was subsequently molded the “old fashion way”.

If it is sheetmetal that you are after, I think it would be cheaper and easier to donate a NOS fender to one of the many shops in eastern Europe making panels.

3D printing small NLA parts still makes sense, but also notsomething that I would personally focus on.

Best of luck with your project @xjan99!

 

[xjan99]

Ownership of files - coming from IT, I am thinking “open sourcing” these - if it can be funded the files would be made available for all. And some might contribute with additional files, updates, etc along the way.

I totally see that for the majority of us here, these are good for measurments maybe. But the idea of making parts is also there, to a point. Not for me necessarily - although I’d love to help out, I am busy with my day job(s) already + car projects.

 

[Krzysztof]

Sorry Krzysztof, I am not quite understanding your brick question . Please elaborate

Sorry for my wording .. I mean rather shares, contributions, donations.

I would not be surprised if the sum of all donations for the forum over the year (which are expected for server space, maintenance etc) are not even close to the money presented as required to make the 3D scan which put a question mark about the success of such plan.

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Car body could be useful to model some modifications of the car for project reasons (wider body, spoilers, colors etc)
Similar story might apply to engine compartment (e.g. different engine).

If we take into account that E9 has been hand assembled one 3D scanned fender will probably not fit after copying (in any way/technology) to other E9. And I would expect differences might be huge (we have people here which can say more about it).

For the scanning there is also another topic. Which E9 to be taken as specimen?
I would assume such a car would need to be in perfect shape, without major repairs etc because it would only guarantee proper scan quality for copying purpose.

Most interesting for me is to scan or build 3D models for smaller parts like interior, engine or trunk details etc. Small part's scans can be milled CNC (as for sunvisor mounts, popular on this forum) or 3D printed easily.

For the complete body there is much cheaper method called photogrammetry

Some intro HowTo (3D printing):

Example of usage in the classic car reconstruction (barn find Porsche 911 being used in World Championship by Sobieslaw Zasada, one of the best race drivers world wide.

Movies are in Polish but the picture shows the way scans have been utlilized for. It was also used to model fiber glass bumpers (custom to fit the shape), drilling scheme of the bonnet (for the high beams) etc.

from 51min.:

from 16min.:

 

[xjan99]

Valid points all, but I am not so sceptical about body panels not fitting. BMW supplied these too, other makes/models have aftermarket parts available like fenders etc so they fit. Ok, some work may be needed, but still. A good example of a enthusiasm based aftermarket parts producing company is e30garage in Norway - they now produce majority of E30 M3 body panels. https://www.facebook.com/E30garageNorway/

It can be done, it is sadly so only yet, that noone has started the production of E9 panels . Only smaller items, repair parts not whole fenders etc. Is it because of difficulty/low market need/price... ?

 

[Belgiumbarry]

thanks the crashed , rolled cars they have underbody pics of that time

 

[Krzysztof]

Garage Norway is fully commercial business. I'm unsure we can compare them with Hobby-like Forum activity.

It is true, still many body parts for E9 are not available, but I is changing.

Size is not the biggest problem but shape. You can look on the W&N or TloczniaBlach web sides.

Such parts as fenders are the most complicated to be made.
In the past fenders were done by welding few separate items together. It is still valid for coachbuilders, low volume.

As being from profession a part of Automotive business I was few times in the car plants. Body panels like doors, floor or fenders require several process steps (equal to number of presses and forms). It is an enormous cost starting from location, machine park, forms and maintenance, not forgetting about the manpower, taxes etc.

In the end business case matters.

E30 is on the top of the popularity with over 1 million cars produced and few hundred thousands in use or restoration. So it makes sense (profit) to make it.

Everything is possible as long there is enough persistence and money to realize it.

It was told on this forum W&N might have front fenders for sale in some time but I have no more details about it. Worth to ask them.

Personally I'm for any hobbyist trying to move forward with E9 (but no only) technical documentation and spare parts reproduction. I'm with your attitude as many on this forum. If high amount of money is in the game, each of us has different budget, plans and priorities.

I does not mean no one can support you from financial perspective as well.

Keeping for the progress!

 

[xjan99]

I am not saying the forum members should start a production company

Total E9 BMWs made: 30546
Total E30 M3 BMWs made: 17970

 

[Krzysztof]

I am not saying the forum members should start a production company

Total E9 BMWs made: 30546
Total E30 M3 BMWs made: 17970

Neither I.

 

[xjan99]

So, hypothetically - for instance, how many front fenders would the E9 owners/restorers need/buy in say 2022-2023? 10-50-100-...?

 

[Krzysztof]

This is the most important question.

Maybe W&N could help with answer.

Asking here, on Forum the answer would be the question: How much for a piece (assuming people will see good quality pictures of the fender first)?
After few positive reviews you it might be several people here, especially during the restoration time would buy a fender or two.

Maybe @sfdon would be able to estimate any potential need of these.

There was a pair of NOS from fender for sale in Poland for over 2000EUR and they've gone after few weeks.

Reproduction will never go as high probably.

If I would be able to estimate I would bid for below 5-10pcs before quality will not be confirmed and the price would be much below $1000/piece

The ceiling of the volume is coming from the production volumes and can be shrinked by 50 or 75% for the cars left, not being a donors for other E9s.

Maybe market demand would be higher, once there would be a full set of body parts available (like for VW Beetle or Ford Mustang).
People would than be able to consider coach building probably.

 

[Belgiumbarry]

depends on the price i assume.... as most E9's over here are in the price range 30...50k , i don't see many owners buy 2 fenders of "5k" each ?
They will continue repairs with W&N lower parts ?

 

[Krzysztof]

I think the cost of any body panel is the sum of few factors:
- market demand/expectation (quantity, quality, sell price)
- complication (how many working hours body expert needs to make a copy of the part or patch panel for it)
- materials/power required
- ...

 

[xjan99]

cheapest I have seen for NOS front fender is I think 1500 and looking at WN other parts prices I would no expect new repros to cost less . I think BMW classic advertised at some point a price ca. 2500 per fender if they start production again. Not sure