Bulk head sheet metal construction (and Hood pins) - A couple of questions

[JamesE30]

Hi guys,

Im currently in the process of a bare metal rebuild. Im curious what peoples thoughts are on the original construction of the bulkhead/strut tower area.

This is the area in question:

The example above is one of the nicer examples that I have seen. Which is hilarious, because the original composition looks so poorly constructed, like a bunch of offcuts were just spot welded together at the last minute.. Seeing examples with original seam sealer/sound insulation etc smeared all over look even worse: (no offence, I'm just talking about the original design, not these clean examples in particular)

Here are a couple more examples showing the metal construction

QUESTION ONE:

I know people go to extreme lengths to recreate their cars as original as possible, but what do people think about rebuilding this area cleaner such as the example below? Of course I think most will agree it looks much cleaner, but will this type of thing hurt the value of the car, or would it be beneficial to the cars value?
Or do people want to see the outlines of that original sheet metal, and not suspect its smeared with bondo.. ?
What are your thoughts on sound insulation/seam sealer etc?

I have actually purchased replacement sheet metal already with plans to recreate it as per the first couple of pictures I posted, but after seeing the example above I've been thinking of cleaner options. Just don't want to hurt the value of the car... Thoughts?



QUESTION TWO:

My coupe had hood pins fitted when I purchased it, but in the wrong location. I would like to replace them with some new ones in the corner of the hood as the CSL's had.

I have a couple of pictures here showing different styles on different coupes. I appreciate I probably can't buy original ones anywhere, but I'd like something close.

So anyone with hood pins, could you please share a picture or any measurements you have so I can get some as close looking to original as possible?

Many thanks!

 

[DAVE]

Original sheet metal look all the way!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Keshav]

Yes, original sheet metal and all pieces should be visible individually and ideally the spot welds too! The clean look might scare off folks not knowing what’s underneath.

A pic of the Edelstahl coupe with original panels.....

The pins location on the Stance works car is wrong. The pin is not the correct one either.
Correct position is like in the pic. The pins are not available new but send me a pm and I might be able to get you a pair of replicas (not like the Stance works type )

 

[Keshav]

James,
The first 3 pics you posted is how they should look,IMHO, after restoration.
A member friends Csl.

 

[Gransin]

I have the "cleaner" version of the strut tower area, but that's only because my car already had that from an earlier repair on both sides, and I/we simply took the easiest way to get it solid again.
If I would do it again, I'd go the original route, but at that time I was a little overwhelmed with all the issues my shell had, and the available skills, time and experience weren't up to tearing it all away and start from scratch.
I'm totally sure it will hurt the value of your car if that area is custom-made, with no seams visible.
So, if I had the time and skills, I'd make it look stock.

 

[WALTER]

I agree with the others that it may hurt the value. You could; however, take extensive pictures of the fabrication to prove to future buyers that it was purpose built and not hiding any bondo or fiberglass.

I like the smooth look. The factory welding does look like metal patched together and sandwiched over top of another. I’d say if it is your forever car and you want to showcase your work under the hood, then go for the smooth look. If you think you might sell it one day, it probably makes more sense to keep it looking stock

 

[autokunst]

I am not to this point in my bare metal restoration - so I don't have any data to contribute. But I LOVE the topic of this thread - thank you for posting. And my OPINION is that, although the original construction does have a "patched" appearance, to my eye it looks right. The clean, custom examples shown above do look cleaner, but to my eye they do not look like a coupe. Rather, they appear more like a custom hot rod type of build or potentially a body filler covered fix (even if they are actually just beautifully clean metal work). No offense to the owners of the examples above - that's just my opinion. But I plan to stay on the original replication path myself.

 

[Honolulu]

My thoughts apparently run counter to the general flow: I like the clean look.

We all know these cars are decades old. But they don't have to look that way. VERY VERY FEW members of the general public will know what they looked like ex-factory, which is to me, as noted above, patched together from scrap.

I also favor taking sufficient pics to document that your "clean look" is not a bondo-resto.

ONLY IF you think to someday sell for millions (in whatever the current currency is) should you think you're bound to original construction methods and materials. How many folks know the fenders are leaded to the body, just under the windshield, like British cars of the 1950s (and probably many others)? And how many would care?

I better stop now.

 

[JamesE30]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. It’s nice to hear your opinions.
I think I will stick with my plan to rebuild it as per original. Even though I dread having to explain to people “that’s how it is supposed to look” “no.. seriously”
I do plan to sell this car one day (frankly I can’t really afford to keep it for ever haha) and I want to do what ever I can to maintain its value.

Yes, original sheet metal and all pieces should be visible individually and ideally the spot welds too! The clean look might scare off folks not knowing what’s underneath.

A pic of the Edelstahl coupe with original panels.....

The pins location on the Stance works car is wrong. The pin is not the correct one either.
Correct position is like in the pic. The pins are not available new but send me a pm and I might be able to get you a pair of replicas (not like the Stance works type )

Oh that’s great thank you very much. PM sent!

 

[Tony.dreamer]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. It’s nice to hear your opinions.
I think I will stick with my plan to rebuild it as per original. Even though I dread having to explain to people “that’s how it is supposed to look” “no.. seriously”
I do plan to sell this car one day (frankly I can’t really afford to keep it for ever haha) and I want to do what ever I can to maintain its value.



Oh that’s great thank you very much. PM sent!

I think you made the right decision to keep it original! When you cut the fenders up (a must) and take the pieces off one by one you will see how they are constructed tougher! Then I believe you see if you try to make it look “clean “ you can raise questions as to how the underneath pieces would have been attached to the top (smooth ) piece. This is because the pieces are actually angled to create a pyramid for regigidity.
To the extend possible try to keep the original weld spots(looks and or locations) too!
On Seam sealing part you can definitely do a cleaner look than factory. Because I saw how poorly some sections were left off from the factory...
You would need a jig of some sort to keep the car from flexing under reconstruction!
It is one of the most fun experience (in working on car stuff category)I had when I did my 71 2800CS last year.
Best wishes!

 

[Tony.dreamer]

 

[Tony.dreamer]

 

[Cornishman]

Interesting that most people have said original. I am sure that they are right regarding future value.
If we talk about other classics eg E Type Jaguar, Ferrari of just about any model, Aston Martin etc, owners talk about originality giving a higher value. However, the CS seems to be the only car where upgrades such as 3,5 litre engine, different carbs, 5 speed trans etc add to the desirability. There is no question that they add to the usability and performance. But, do they add value? Well we could debate that for a long time.
Is the tide starting to turn amongst CS owners that originality, patina, matching numbers etc adds value, like it does for other big ticket classic cars? Ours are becoming big ticket, is that changing opinion?
Food for thought..

My opinion, do what you like if it is for you, it it is to sell them do whatever the market wants, a safe bet is to stay original. My five speed trans sits in the back of the garage until I decide which route to take, currently it is staying original. And, the 5 speed may end up in my mk2 Jag [not a very valuable car) as I fear that will not like the Moss box after a Getrag!!!

C

 

[eriknetherlands]

Interesting question!
I'd stick to original look.

Í know that there is a fender replacement document here on this site (was it from MThompson as well?) which shows the parts needed and their location, tips and tricks for fitting, and some side shots. There is one picture looking at the under hood seams, but as times were back then, the resolutions of the pics don't allow to distinguish spotwelds or even individual parts.

I'd be more then happy to build a new version of that document, and share it, but I'd be in need of members with (access) to original coupes or pictures thereof. (my car has been attacked in the front...)

Is there anyone having a step by step sequence of pictures showing the different build-up of the layers of the area from the window /a-pillar corner up to the front end?
I'm especially interested in the look from the inside; looking from above the engine towards the outside. I can add some cross section sketches as well.
Secondly i'd be interested in a description of the welds; where, type, how many etcetera. This would need to be based on an original unmolested car; perhaps the Stainless steel body (if we can confirm it has been assembled in the same way )

Erik.

 

[arnie]

Is there anyone having a step by step sequence of pictures showing the different build-up of the layers of the area from the window /a-pillar corner up to the front end?

I only can contribute pictures from the restoration of my coupé. Here you find some pictures especially from that section:

https://www.e21-board.de/wbb/index....e-e9-antirosttherapie/&postID=90800#post90800

BTW: I catched up the reason for this rather poor construction with these many overlapping layers of sheetmetal part simply as saving costs. The front wheel house was taken from the E3 series , where the Fender is bolted on. So for the coupé they just cut this section with the mounting points and exchanged this part with the first spot welded top on part, the so called (wheel house) extension.

https://www.wallothnesch.com/karosserie-blechteile/bmw-2-5-cs-3-0-csl-e9/katalogbild-41-03.html

To connect the fender to that extension, they just took the next 2 top on pieces, the connection parts:

Front:

https://www.wallothnesch.com/karosserie-blechteile/bmw-2-5-cs-3-0-csl-e9/katalogbild-41-04.html

Rear:

https://www.wallothnesch.com/karosserie-blechteile/bmw-2-5-cs-3-0-csl-e9/katalogbild-41-04.html

As far as I know also spot welded


So Long

Ingo