Getrag 265 transmission rebuild

Bwana

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So I bought a used 5 speed from a guy on the Left Coast a couple of years ago and had it installed. He thought it had maybe 140,000 miles on it and I've probably added at least another 25,000. It's worked fine so far (got us to Pebble Beach and back) but it's getting increasingly stiff to put into second gear until it's fully warmed up, maybe 30 miles at speed, minimum. Almost won't go on a cold morning and first is pretty stiff too, even when stopped. Third thru five are good, no issues. No whine or weird noises either.

So if I have it rebuilt, the go-to shop seems to be The Metric Mechanic. Although they are pretty spendy, they reputedly have the correct tools and parts.

Any other recommended shop?

If I get it rebuilt, will it become a short shift, slap stick, speed shifting monster? Or will it still be a forty five year old manual transmission where I should count "one potato two potato" between shifts? If I spend $3,000 on a rebuild, I'd like it to shift at least as well as my Toyota P/U :D
 

Mario L.

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Can you downshift w/o grinding second or first? What is the fluid in the box? and are you 100% positive the clutch is fully dis-engaging? Working on as many E30 M3's as I have, all with this gearbox, all driven and used harder than 90% of every other car with the 265 we rarely find the need to rebuild.

Mario L.
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teahead

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Replace the clutch slave cylinder first.

Could be a throw out bearing.

Was the clutch new (and TO bearing) when you put it in 25k miles ago?
 

mulberryworks

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Parts to rebuild the 265 are getting scarce. Very few shops will be able to do the rebuild now. The task is to find one that has the skills and parts to even do the rebuild, price will be a secondary consideration.
Previous posters gave some good advice on making sure it isn't something else causing your shifting trouble.

Ian
 

Mike Goble

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My 265 used to be very stiff to shift when the weather got cold so I dumped the gear oil and filled it with ATF. Night and day difference, 100K later it works great.
 

Bwana

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Good comments, thanks. I'm running Redline 75W90 synthetic, only 25,000 miles on it or so. The clutch and associated slave and master cylinders, throw out bearing, etc. were all replaced when the trans was installed, again, about 25,000 miles ago. I know they are new parts and spec'ed from a mid-80's M6, which I believe had this transmission too. Recently replaced the gubio. Odd that the gubio went out so soon, maybe there's an alignment problem? Would that cause it to shift stiffly? Possibly an issue with the shift rod alignment? It looks pretty straightforward but I've never had one of these apart.

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E...ssion/getrag_265_5_inner_gear_shifting_parts/

The shop that did it all for me had done this same conversion several times so I'm confident they got it in right. The drive shaft was shortened appropriately when installed. Maybe something has moved? No grinding or noise when downshifting, just real stiff going from first to second and back until things are well warmed up. Like getting out of my neighborhood and over to the freeway is an exercise in patience. I guess what I'm concerned about is bending a shift fork if I'm not patient enough. I've seen that before, I think on an old Healey and several motorcycles (yes, I know they're different but the principle is the same).

What is odd though is that there is no noise or whining from the gears or syncros. I've got a 2001 supercharged Toyota P/U with 185,000 miles on it and it shifts terrific but talks to me in all the lower gears. You definitely know the syncros are doing their job. Redline in that too. It's finally stopped raining here so I'll drive it around some more this weekend and see if I can get further data. It was fine when I first had it installed but has been getting progressively worse.
 

Mike Goble

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No grinding or noise when downshifting, just real stiff going from first to second and back until things are well warmed up. Like getting out of my neighborhood and over to the freeway is an exercise in patience.
Mine was exactly like that. When it got cold, like near freezing, the trans was very stiff in 1st and 2nd. I had driven the car for a few years with this problem, and changing the fluid was the cure. Before you spend big bucks on a rebuild, a simple and cheap swap of the fluid might be the solution.
 

Markos

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Is ATF good for the gears? I guess at this point, might as well try it.

I like redline MTL. It helped with second gear grind in my VW's but I've never used it in a BMW. Only because this is my first BMW and I've only driven it a few miles. :)
 

WISE9UY

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Is ATF good for the gears? I guess at this point, might as well try it.

I would imagine as fluid technology has improved it is now possible to provide the same protection with a thinner product and make for a smoother running gearbox. I trust this is why there was the shift from gear oil to ATF in what seems to have been very end of the 70s and 80s.
 

Bwana

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Your suggestion got me thinking. Indeed, there are heavily loaded gears and friction bands in automatic transmissions too. Tribology (study of oil) was going to be a big part of my life 35 years ago but I left the refinery and all my machines became simpler (but significantly larger). But I dug around and found out some stuff. I'm posting the links to the pages as it's becoming evermore troublesome to use Photobucket.

The Owner's Manual calls for "SAE 80" for the gearbox. Looking at this chart (go to Table 5 about half way down)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/putting-the-simple-back-into-viscosity/

80 Wt is between about ISO 46 and say, 95 or so.

Looking at this page

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/F...CCF193E80257BA5006EB93F/$File/BPXE-99LBRT.pdf

ATF is about 5.9 cSt at 100C (now go to the right side of the Table 5, red scale) and 30 cSt at 40C (left scale on Table 5, blue scale) which seems to put it around "70Wt" for the gear oil scale. So yes, ATF "should" be OK for our transmissions as long as you're not driving across Arizona in July at 75MPH.

I need to check on the additives which are significantly more difficult to find. I suspect the genuine gear oil will have friction modifiers like moly in them to achieve the new "high efficiency" ratings the manufacturers are claiming. This is probably not the case for ATF as I assume there are still friction bands around the planetary gears that would slip. I know this has been reported in motorcycle wet clutches when the guys use the new high efficiency motor oils (friction modifiers) instead of M/C specific oil (no friction modifiers). So I would jump to the conclusion that you can put ATF into a manual but you can't put regular gear oil/engine oil into an automatic.

I just need to figure out how many viscosity grades are available in ATF and pick one. Am I over thinking this? This is my daily driver when it's not raining and I'm just outside Houston.

(BTW, there's a lot of mis-information on "Bobs's-the-oil-guy" so be careful with what you take away from it)
 

mulberryworks

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Regarding rebuilding Getrag 265 transmissions, this post is on the E28 site:

Oct 09, 2012 3:27 PM

Ok, got a reply from Jim Blanton.
Called but only got VM.
Emailed and got this answer.

Gary,

Sorry for the delayed reply, having trouble with my website contact webmail.

I could make this a long and boring story, but the bottomline, unfortunately, is that I no longer rebuild these transmissions for these reasons:
• the only parts available have to come from BMW and they have discontinued many - all the housings, 1st gearset, reverse gearset, 5th synchro (also fits 3rd/4th of the 260/6, so that's another one I don't rebuild), and other minor pieces that don't normally have to be replaced,
• or, what parts that are still supplied have increased in cost, damatically - e.g.,, 1st/2nd shift fork (almost always needs replacing) has tripled in cost ( $500 to $600) , input shaft/countershaft set ( also needed 9 times out of 10 rebuilds) has increased to about $2000,
• oddly enough, BMW still offers ZF rebuilt units for about $4500, which, of course, is only marginally higher than the sum of the parts needed to do a proper rebuild.
Sorry I don't have better news. If you would like more details let me know.

thanks for your inquiry,
Jim Blanton
Performance Gearing
 

mulberryworks

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Last I checked, the rebuilt ZF transmission was about $3200 from one of the BMW dealers that does web sales. Plus shipping I suppose.
Still it's a 4 speed, not 5 and so won't attract much interest, but someday, they might be the only available transmissions around.
 

Bwana

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Ouch! And that was five years ago.....

Just for future reference, is there an alternative 5-speed out there? No doubt some modification required. What other models had the 265?
 
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mulberryworks

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The Getrag 265/6 is a robust transmission used in BMW, MB, Volvos, Jaguars and others. Of course this compounds the demand for the few that are available.

I've looked on the web for some information on what BMWs models used it. None of this information is verified.

Remember that only the early units had the mechanical speedo drive installed. The drive is also getting quite hard to find, and thus expensive. A drive from a ZF transmission won't work, it must be a Getrag.
Add a new speedo cable for an automatic to the price tag of conversion. $70. Otherwise, you'll need an electronic speedo and a newer differential that sends the speed signal to it, or even more high tech, a GPS speedo that uses satellites.

Some have put in much newer engines than the M30 and used the 6 speed that mounts to them. Then you have to enlarge the transmission tunnel and change all your mounts. Very custom.

This is an interesting link. Metric Mechanic will sell you a robustly rebuilt 265 with better than new internals. For a price of course. They don't mention the E9, probably because of the lack of a speedometer drive. Good information here on how they are built and why the 265 is better than the 260.

Ian

===================

1. The 265 was the only M30 5 speed trans until 1982, when the 260 was introduced. It was brought back for the 1985 model year, then phased out again. You should be able to find it in M30-powered cars of those years. Keep in mind which kind you want to find, the CR or OD. It was also used on the E30 M3, but considering the rarity of those cars, finding one from an older car would be far easier. The easiest way to tell a 265 is the combination of a three-section case and the removeable bellhousing.

2. The 265 was used on 6 cylinder cars only, aside from the E30 M3, which shared its bellhousing with the S38. All the 265s should be the same in this regard.

3. The 265 is the only 5 speed 6 cylinder BMW transmission with a removeable bellhousing. all the others have the bellhousing integrated into the rest of the case, including the 260.

4. Like I said in #3, every other transmission is attached to its bellhousing, so no. However, there is a M30-patterned 6 speed trans: the Getrag 280/6. It was only used on 1995 M5s, though, so there are likely less than 5000 worldwide. Good luck finding that! The start and end ratios are the same anyway, so you are only gaining a closer ratio gear, not more overdrive.

5. Lots of people have put 400-500+ through the boxes without issue.

==================

I have a getrag 265 CR dogleg from a '80 635 CSi Euro that I would like to put behind a S52. It's my understanding that a bell housing exists to make it happen, but I have not been successful in researching a part number or model year cars that could be a source.
---------------------------------
Based on my understanding, you would have to make a custom bellhousing, as the M50 bellhousing pattern is different from any previous BMW engine. The 265 CR is also a pretty fragile box, the ODs are the extremely strong ones. Your best bet is to use the M50 ZF trans with the S52; that's what most of the turbocharged guys use.
=====================

Getrag 265 5 speed transmissions

For US spec cars:
With speedometer drive parts installed:
80-81 E12 528i and E24 633 ('79s were 4 speeds)
It is possible some 80-81 733s had 265s.

Possible to convert:
82 E28 528e (you'll need to get a big six bellhousing)
85 E28 535 and '85 E24 635 (only year for 265) (also possible there were some 85 735s that had 265s)

88-90 E30 M3 (not sure if you need a big six bellhousing for these).

You will also find 265s in E12 530s and 76-79 E24 633s that have been converted.

There were posts on this forum in the past on how to do the speedometer drive conversions.

=============================

E28 Transmissions, an overview

Manual
  • G260/5

    • Used on 5/6/733s from '83-'84. Non removable bell housing, waffle pattern for case casting. Considered weak and cannot accommodate a M5 clutch. Sheet metal shifter support. Overdrive 5th.
  • G260/5

    • Used on '83-'88 528es, and E30 6 cylinder cars. Same model number as above, but different bell housing bolt pattern and shape, so it’s not interchangeable. Some or most or all of the internal parts may be, but with the cost of used transmissions, it’s irrelevant. Used sheet metal support thru about 86, then used the cast support. Waffle case pattern. Overdrive 5th.
  • G260/6

    • Used on '86-'88 535’s and E34 535s, but they may not have the flywheel sensor holes drilled out. Identify it by the fins on the bottom of the transmission and non-removable case. Overdrive 5th.
  • G265/6

    • Used on '82 528e and '85 535i. Also on '85 6/735, '80-'81 E12, '81-'82 6/733s and E30 M3s. Considered the strongest transmission available for E28’s. Is easily identified by a removable bell housing which allows use on M10, M20 and M30 engines, as long as the correct bell housing is used or reused. All except M3s have a sheet metal shifter support. It’s use in '85 M30 powered cars was reportedly dictated by the short life of the 260/5 in those cars. Overdrive 5th.
  • G280

    • Used on M5/M6s. Close ratio, but overdrive 5th gear.
  • G265/5

    • Never available on US spec cars, it's a close ratio 5 speed similar to the 265/6 overdrive transmission. 5th gear is 1:1. Often incorrectly called a 262 close ratio or dogleg, but a 262 is a 4 speed transmission. All 265’s I’ve seen have the front case casting with a 262xxx casting number, but they are 265s if they are 5 speeds. Removable bell housing and it does have an unusual shift pattern with 1st being off by itself and 4th/5th across from each other instead of 5th being up by itself.
    Other notes: Most or all of the linkage parts seem to be model specific, the sheet metal shifter supports while they look the same, aren’t, even if from the same transmission and for the same chassis, i.e. one from a G265 from a 528e won’t work on a G265 in a 535i. I assume this is also the case for the later cast aluminum shifter supports, but I haven’t verified it myself.
 
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