Korman Triple Carb Conversion

TMC1973 CS

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Any thoughts on the Korman Triple Weber side draft conversion kit for a 1973 3.0CS Euro? They apparently come pretty complete with manifold pre-installed.

Looking for a bit more horsepower and quicker throttle response.

Any input would be appreciated.
 

rsporsche

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i had the Korman double Weber side drafts on a 2002 - it was a great package. here's a question, is your engine stock? or improved? i would recommend putting a cam in a stock engine to make more use of sidedrafts. love the triples on the coupe - but another option is the downdraft 38/38 - i believe our friend @Stan has this setup.
 

Drew Gregg

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Several of the members have 3XDCOE 40 carbs. My car is a 1973 USA CS with the entire stage 2 Korman engine. The engine is an E24 3.3 L and the head is from 1986. That's what Korman built in 2005. If you were to buy just the carbs and intake manifold from Korman, they will tell you all the parts you need to have the engine run well. If you want more HP and throttle response, then a cam and lightened flywheel are where you start.
 

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boonies

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Hi Drew,
I am curious about your crankcase vent. Looks like a hose going to a catch can. What catch can did you use and where did you mount it? Also, which trumpets and filters are you using?

Thanks,

Lance
 

m5bb

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From a guy I know that has triple side draft Webers, you might look into a fuel injection setup.
Much better start and drive, easier to tune, more reliable etc.
Just saying....
I love my Webers but the learning curve is high and with out some modes as mentioned by others you won't get any great performance improvement.
There are some systems available now for the M30 motor that I have seen.
Gary
 

Drew Gregg

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Hi Drew,
I am curious about your crankcase vent. Looks like a hose going to a catch can. What catch can did you use and where did you mount it? Also, which trumpets and filters are you using?

Thanks,

Lance
Lance--The catch can is mounted where the battery was now that it is in the trunk. I found it on EBay. The 1" long trumpets are the only ones that clear the brake booster. Those and the screens are available from Pierce Manifold.
When I really wanted throttle response, I drove my daughter's Tesla Model S that I had for 6 months. Recently I test-drove the BMW I4 M50 in sport mode.
It was "Ludacrist" !!----Drew
 

Ohmess

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I like the whole triple Weber thing, but it’s not for everyone.

I have the Korman intake manifold and tstat housing in my car. Korman no longer sells the manifold (I talked to Ray Korman about this at Legends/Hilton Head last fall; his supplier lost the molds and drawings in a fire), but they are willing to make up a tstat housing. There is no one stop shop for all the parts necessary to do a triple Weber setup.

Benefits:

Tuning is very flexible.

- You can tune for maximum horsepower (which is what the race versions of our car did) or for driveability or for a range of possibilities in between.
- You can tune for your particular circumstances (type of fuel, elevation above sea level, etc.)
- You have a throat for each cylinder, which means you can refine your tune to take into account variability from cylinder to cylinder.
- You can tune to take into account fuel economy, or not.
- You can tune to take into account emissions, or not.

They sound fabulous, and their sound is unique.

They look great.

They are purely a vintage car thing; there is no modern analog.

Disadvantages:

While they can complement other engine improvements, on a stock engine, they offer only modest improvements in performance and then only if well tuned.

There is not an abundance of people who can work on them for you. And because triple Webers were not a factory option on our cars, there are no reference materials on how to tune them. If you don’t learn to tune them yourself, you need to find an old school mechanic (and one who is willing to work on your setup, which some will not be).

Because they are so flexible, they can also be complicated to tune. This fact also complicates hiring someone to work on them because they may have different ideas on how to tune them (e.g., they may place more emphasis on fuel economy, whereas you might prefer more top end horsepower).

They are expensive to acquire.

In our cars, there are a number of changes that must be made to make the carbs fit:

- the mechanical fuel pump needs to be changed for an electric fuel pump
- the carbs require a unique intake manifold
- the carbs require a unique linkage from the bell crank up and across the carbs
- the front carb will be really really close to your tstat housing; best to either obtain a modified housing (which Korman sells) or get an offset block like the one Markos made a few years back
- air cleaner options are limited, and many don’t look good in our cars. In addition, the brake booster interferes with most air cleaners on the middle carb. Changing to a tii booster is recommended because of this.

They do not self adjust. If you go into the mountains, for example, your car will run rich in the thinner air, and you need to change jetting to address this.

The accelerator pump circuits dump fuel into the carbs whenever you step on the gas. While this is somewhat adjustable, it wastes fuel and can increase emissions. This is the primary area where fuel injection is better than carbs because the amount of fuel supplied upon acceleration is much more tightly controlled.

Carbs can be made to run almost as efficiently as fuel injection when the car is up to operating temperature, but no matter how much you try, carbs emit more emissions when the engine is cold. (This is why carbs are no longer used on automobiles.)

While they are robust, they require regular monitoring, as there are numerous ways in which they can go out of tune. I just had one of the floats in one of my carbs take on gasoline so that it no longer floated properly. Vacuum leaks, not only on the carbs themselves but also on ancillary systems like the brake booster and distributor vacuum advance circuit, are another area of concern. Quite simply, they are not as carefree as fuel injection, so you have to really want them in your car else the hassle is not worth it.
 

shanon

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+1 to Ohmess summary.

Triples are a 'journey'.

Having done my triple (45s) conversion personally then blowing my motor last Spring on track, I am now enjoying a complete 'hot rod' motor rebuild by a known NorCal builder. We went in trying to fix a horribly expensive sounding noise in the head, left a year later with an entire, new, fresh 'build'.

Cue evil villain laugh...

If considering triples, look at your 'entire' motor, your purpose and long term goals, then plan on many changes ($$). I went with the Korman T-stat housing too. Also, my builder informed me that it's just alot easier now to get parts for a 3.5L..... so now I have a 3.5L.

If you're not interested in such a major undertaking, I had and think the synchronized 38/38s (considering putting some on my E3) and a Petronix are great for a simpler bolt-on mods. I thought it had a nice throttle response. An electric fuel pump is a nice thing too. Ran that set-up for @ 20/yrs-100k miles.

I have heard great things about the EFI/Megasquirt set-ups, and I look forward to comparing a buddy's recent FI build to my triple build. For me, I followed my childhood dream of opening the hood to see a set of triples. I still have another 750 miles of break-in period before I get on the dyno to 'see what I got', but I can tell you that up to 5K rpms (builder told me to stay under 5k during break in, but going 7k is not a problem), that the sound and pull is intoxicating....got an angry tiger under the hood now.

In conclusion: if unfamiliar with triples, consult/find a known builder and/or tuner that can guide you. Once the project is built, plan on a dyno session w/ a weber guru for the optimal results. If no dyno available, install an AFR gauge to assist with your tuning. Each motor will be different and require different jetting etc to be its 'happiest'.

HTH, enjoy your project and the journey it takes you on. There is light at the end of the tunnel and the results can be intoxicating.
 

Ohmess

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Further to Shanon's comments - I spoke to Carl Nelson about this topic several years ago in Monterey and Carl prefers the 38/38s over the sidedraft Webers. His view is that they are easier to implement, less expensive and provide virtually the same benefits. (Obviously, he doesn't fully appreciate the aural and visual aspects of triple Webers).
 

Stevehose

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We went in trying to fix a horribly expensive sounding noise in the head, left a year later with an entire, new, fresh 'build'.
I resemble this remark!

The only thing I can add to the above well thought out commentaries of @Ohmess and @shanon is that the 123ignition distributor is great to have with triple Webers. It allows the idle rpm to be set at a point where the throttle plates are just covering the first progression hole, often times this setting results in too low an idle. This is one of the "fundamentals" of Weber tuning because it affects the efficacy of the idle mixture screw which affects idle AFR which affects idle jet choice, off-idle acceleration, cruise AFR, and so on and so on. The 123 also allows you to dial in advance earlier than a stock distributor which also according to Weber lore is important. Lastly, when on the dyno, you'll be able to tweak the advance from your iphone to reach max torque quickly. And on a dyno, time is money.
 

halboyles

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Korman no longer sells the manifold (I talked to Ray Korman about this at Legends/Hilton Head last fall; his supplier lost the molds and drawings in a fire), but they are willing to make up a tstat housing.
I might have a set of the manifolds. Also, we have the spacer for the thermostat that @Markos created (I believe) and, of course, we sell the complete linkage system for the sidedrafts.

 

Ohmess

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I might have a set of the manifolds. Also, we have the spacer for the thermostat that @Markos created (I believe) and, of course, we sell the complete linkage system for the sidedrafts.

Hal - for future reference, do you make that spacer?
 

Drew Gregg

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Lance--The catch can is mounted where the battery was now that it is in the trunk. I found it on EBay. The 1" long trumpets are the only ones that clear the brake booster. Those and the screens are available from Pierce Manifold.
When I really wanted throttle response, I drove my daughter's Tesla Model S that I had for 6 months. Recently I test-drove the BMW I4 M50 in sport mode.
It was "Ludacrist" !!----Drew
Here's a pic of the Catch Can.
 

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JFENG

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Having done my triple (45s) conversion personally then blowing my motor last Spring on track, I am now enjoying a complete 'hot rod' motor rebuild by a known NorCal builder.
Shannon, can you share your 45DCOE jetting with the forum. I am putting 45’s on a 3.5L that has some modest street performance mods (cam, header, compression). It would be helpful to see where you ended up, which I would us as a starting point.

As far as shops who know Webers, every good vintage race shop will have expertise with setting up and tuning DCOEs. If such a vintage race shop supports old formula fords, they will also be experienced with the Weber 32/36.

John
 

TodB

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Further to Shanon's comments - I spoke to Carl Nelson about this topic several years ago in Monterey and Carl prefers the 38/38s over the sidedraft Webers. His view is that they are easier to implement, less expensive and provide virtually the same benefits. (Obviously, he doesn't fully appreciate the aural and visual aspects of triple Webers).
I had the exact same conversation with Carl 20+ years ago when I got my coupe which came with triples. I ended up pulling them and going with dual 38s which have been terrific though those triples sure did sound and look good. The duals fit under the stock air filter housing as well. The icing on the cake was adding a 123 dizzy which smooothed things out a bit. With the low compression 3.3L, 284 Shrick, dual weber 38s and a 123, I was at 165 HP at the wheels a few years ago. I've literally done no maintenace to the webers in the last 10 years save a slight adjustment to dial in the fast idle/choke when I moved south.
 

Stevehose

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I had the exact same conversation with Carl 20+ years ago when I got my coupe which came with triples. I ended up pulling them and going with dual 38s which have been terrific though those triples sure did sound and look good. The duals fit under the stock air filter housing as well. The icing on the cake was adding a 123 dizzy which smooothed things out a bit. With the low compression 3.3L, 284 Shrick, dual weber 38s and a 123, I was at 165 HP at the wheels a few years ago. I've literally done no maintenace to the webers in the last 10 years save a slight adjustment to dial in the fast idle/choke when I moved south.
And your car hauls ass, I remember trying to follow you and Mario at the Vintage one year, unsuccessfully I might add
 
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