Need help assessing value of a CSi

FastCougar

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All, please bear with me as I write this, it's part introduction, part background on me and on the CSi in question. In short, I'm selling a CSi for my father and need some help in assessing it's value before I put it up for sale.

Let's begin with a short introduction and background. My name is Trevor and I've been a lifelong BMW admirer. My father got bit by the bug when we lived in Europe and he passed it along to me since it was my formative years (ages 5-15). We were reassigned state side in 1988 (Air Force) and we imported a 1976 Bavaria 3.0S, which I took to my senior prom in 1992
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Our last overseas duty station was Aviano Italy and there, my Mother worked for the COM group commander, who just so happened to also be a huge BMW enthusiast. He returned state-side in 1987 and he imported a 1972 3.0 CSi. He was the 2nd owner as it was originally purchased new in Bologna, Italy by a doctor in 1972. Fast forward to 1995 and my father was reassigned to Scott AFB along with Colonel who my mother used to work for. He knew my father's shared love affair and offered to sell it to my father. Without hesitation, my father snatched it up and it's been his since September of 1995. Hard to believe, but this 1972 German spec 3.0 CSi has only ever had 3 owners. My father has requested my help in selling the car since I live closer to the D.C. region than he does and I obviously obliged. That said, I'm here mainly to get some input on how to price the car. I'm currently in the process of detailing it and going through all the paperwork so that I can answer any questions.

I have personally run a similar group of car enthusiast for the 1999-2002 Mercury Cougar. I've been turning wrenches since 17 and haven't paid more than $3K over the last 22 years for mechanical work outside my own work. I've done everything from building a 450hp (at the wheels) 3.0L Turbo system for a 1999 Cougar to rebuilding a couple automatic transmissions, header installs, suspension overhauls, and everything else down to changing the oil on everything I've owned ... you might call me a gear head ... is that a step up or down from shade tree mechanic? That said, I haven't had to lay a finger on the car and I'm simply detailing it so that the new owner needs only turn the key and enjoy a near Concourse ready car.

I'm Looking forward to getting to know this platform better (E9) as I dig through the manuals, associated paperwork with the car and detailing it. Also looking forward to attending some local events and getting to know you guys. All that said, I was hoping someone could chime in with estimate ranges based on 2 main factors, mechanical and aesthetic range values.

What I know: The car is heavily documented with the exception of the original bill of sale. All importation documents are in order and it is indeed a 1972 CSi, not some US market CS hack. I think you guys refer to it as a Grey Market car.

Mechanical: She starts up and drives beautifully and the only mechanical issue is one I'm finding is VERY common ... the doors require a hulk slam for them to sit flush (needs adjustment) and Passenger's side window will go down, but not up (currently up) ... oh yeah, and the Driver's side window goes down, but can sometimes be temperamental on going back up (if you can get it started, it closes just fine, getting it started can be problematic).

Aesthetic: 1/2" (or less) tear in an otherwise pristine headliner, the paint is near pristine with a training edge chip in the driver's door on the and a slight chip on the front below the chrome molding line, above the grille. Faint signs of interior wood delamination ... almost un-noticed. Last but not least, driver's side door panels need to be reworked as the retention clips have come undone (probably from Dad fiddling with the windows). Last but not least, the front and rear roundels could use replacing along with a missing roundel on the front left wheel inner hub.

This is coming from an uber-anal shade-tree mechanic with paint/body work experience, but I'd grade the overall aesthetic's of the car 8/10.

I'll get a lot of detailed pictures once the detailing is complete (hopefully tonight). Any help you guys can provide is greatly appreciated!
 

tmason

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Hi Trevor
I think you should switch gears and sell the Cougar and keep this if it is a 8/10 car. Rust is the most important thing on these cars so click on the tech info and see where they rust.Removing the rocker covers is a good start and posting picture will get you a price range and maybe an offer.
Good Luck.
 

Stan

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Take and post lots of photos:

Front shock towers, wheel wells, spare tire well, under front carpet. Any bubbles in the paint as well as the usual beauty shots

The car is in DC?
 

FastCougar

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Hi Trevor
I think you should switch gears and sell the Cougar and keep this if it is a 8/10 car. Rust is the most important thing on these cars so click on the tech info and see where they rust.Removing the rocker covers is a good start and posting picture will get you a price range and maybe an offer.
Good Luck.
LOL, the Cougar is gone and I would keep this car in a heartbeat if I could afford it! My father is building his retirement house and needs the money. I'm aware of all the rust prone areas and this car and my father had them all rectified 15 years ago when it was completely refinished. He said there was VERY little rust that needed attention from the body shop (all in the receipts) because it rarely saw weather. The original owner in Bologna wouldn't drive it in the rain and the previous owner also never drove it in the rain. My father said it's seen rain maybe 5-10 times over the last 15 years. I'll gladly take any requested photos, which would you suggest to show it's rust worthiness?
 

FastCougar

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tmason

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So this is how it should go Trevor,tell Dad the guys on that forum said the value of your car hasn't hit a peak yet so they are thinking about 5 for it today and I'm willing to pay that much but you are going to have to carrier paper on at least 4 for me,you know I'm good for it right Dad!Than spend a couple of weekend building on that Dream House with him and he might say Son don't worry about that 4 and there you go an e9 in your driveway for a Grand.Don't worry my Boy's will probably try this me in a few years:)
 

HB Chris

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Door slamming: make sure there is small plastic cap (some call it a kernel) on the door latch mechanism on the door itself. Without it things don't line up.
 

FastCougar

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Door slamming: make sure there is small plastic cap (some call it a kernel) on the door latch mechanism on the door itself. Without it things don't line up.
Thanks HB, I saw a recent thread about this and tried the 1/2" of tubing trick in place of the actual "nipple cover" and it didn't work too well. I'll have to see if the stock part helps.
 

FastCougar

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So I managed to wash and partially clay bar the car tonight. As I'm working the clay (managed to hit all horizontal surfaces, vertical will be tomorrow + wax), I notice that things are setting up for a spectacular sunset. So, I ran in and grabbed the camera and managed to get these ... Once the detailing is done, I'll try and get some more detailed photos.

Link to the Photo Set



Reflected in the rooftop
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Reflected in the hood
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The money shot ... almost ... a little too much Bohka
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JFENG

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Nice looking car, Value of documentation...

Always wonderful to see straight body panels and good gaps.
If the bones are as good as the exterior shots, it ought to be worth $30k all day long.
I DID have the original bill of sale for my old E9, and personally I think having reasonably complete documentation is a really nice enhancement that people will pay $ for. Maybe not thousands but I think a grand or so would be a fair increment for one with complete history.
 

FastCougar

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Always wonderful to see straight body panels and good gaps.
If the bones are as good as the exterior shots, it ought to be worth $30k all day long.
I DID have the original bill of sale for my old E9, and personally I think having reasonably complete documentation is a really nice enhancement that people will pay $ for. Maybe not thousands but I think a grand or so would be a fair increment for one with complete history.
Thanks ... I have every piece of paperwork and parts invoice since 1980, but alas, I can't find the original owner's bill of sale from the dealership. However, I have a folder full of importation documents and some parts receipts prior to being imported (by 2nd owner, my father is 3rd). She's a solid car for sure and one I would be proud to own and drive on Saturday morning to get coffee. I'll get some more shots tomorrow of the shock towers, underside of the car, etc. Someone mentioned removing the side lower fairing, so I might tackle that as well. I pulled everything out of the trunk and looked in the spare wheel compartment and it looks solid ... I'll be sure to get photos of all this.
 

JFENG

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2 money shots

These are a bit hard to get. Open both glove boxes. If you look foward and up, you can see the firewall (above the fuse box and above the back of the big glove box). Try to get a pic if you can.

Also, turn the front wheels, and then feel up inside the small "pocket" at the rear of the inner fender. This cubby can fill up with dirt, which then traps moisture, which then causes a rust thru that eventually breaches the firewall (at which point you will see rust above the glove boxes.

This one is also really hard with the front wheels on. Try to get a picture of the underside of the front fenders just ahead of the reinforced area where the strut mounts. You should be able to see a channel that's about 1.5" wide that's where the outer front fender overlaps the intermediate fender panel. This is infamous for filling up with gunk, trapping moisture against metal, and you know what comes next.

This set of restoration photos by Sven is a good example of where to look
http://www.larsenarchitect.com/BMW/Sections/Rt Fender/FrontFenderFrameset.html
 

FastCougar

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These are a bit hard to get. Open both glove boxes. If you look foward and up, you can see the firewall (above the fuse box and above the back of the big glove box). Try to get a pic if you can.

Also, turn the front wheels, and then feel up inside the small "pocket" at the rear of the inner fender. This cubby can fill up with dirt, which then traps moisture, which then causes a rust thru that eventually breaches the firewall (at which point you will see rust above the glove boxes.

This one is also really hard with the front wheels on. Try to get a picture of the underside of the front fenders just ahead of the reinforced area where the strut mounts. You should be able to see a channel that's about 1.5" wide that's where the outer front fender overlaps the intermediate fender panel. This is infamous for filling up with gunk, trapping moisture against metal, and you know what comes next.

This set of restoration photos by Sven is a good example of where to look
http://www.larsenarchitect.com/BMW/Sections/Rt Fender/FrontFenderFrameset.html
Will do, thanks ... I have no qualms with things like removing wheels so long as I know a good solid jacking point ... that said, where would you jack up the car if you wanted to elevate just the front end and remove the front wheels? also, where would you place the jack stands? I no newbie to mechanics, but I've never been under an E9 before and I don't want to jack or stand on the wrong location :shock:
 

Stevehose

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for front wheels put the jack under the frame rail just aft of where it starts to bend up towards the suspension
 
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JFENG

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us a block of wood if you jack

doesn't have a decent, wide saddle. And use jack stands.... I had a car fall off a jack once (at Watkins Glen, changing the brake pads). Wasn't funny.
 

FastCougar

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doesn't have a decent, wide saddle. And use jack stands.... I had a car fall off a jack once (at Watkins Glen, changing the brake pads). Wasn't funny.
I once had a jack stand give way on hot asphalt one time when changing front brake pads on a 1991 Corolla ... no damage to rotor because the jack stand wedged itself diagonally between the front sub-frame and the floorboard. It sure did put a big dent in the floorboard though! Since then I have always used a 2x10 fragment as a base for my jack stands to spread the load across a much wider area ;)
 
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chapa

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The best way to get your best price is to list it on eBay or craigslist, then make sure the website Bring a Trailer gets wind of it.
 

FastCougar

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Are those chrome wheel wells? If so, are they standard on the European E-9's?
Yes they are and No, they are not standard. Based on everything I know, they were only standard on the 3.0 CSL and I know these were fitted in Italy by the original owner in the late 70's. The 2nd owner is a good family friend and he purchased the car with them ... still going through receipts from "The Italian Years" section of the paperwork.
 
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