Re-open the r12 vrs r134a. no-one works on r12 anymore, and is this component needed:?

[jjs2800cs]

Sorry to maybe beating a dead horse subject BUT......

Have a 70 2800CS that we installed a complete AC system from a junked 72CS. This was done in early 90's. Only update then was new expansion valve and a rotary compressor. Stock condenser, evaporator, new hoses, and retained r12.

System has worked well and still is okay but have been living in Florida for many years and cooling is less than optimum. SO we are now going to bite the bullet and upgrade using a parallel flow condenser and newer compressor, etc.

BUT we have called every reasonably local AC shop. No one has capability to evacuate the r12, let alone re-charge the r12. We have read all the past great threads on the AC upgrades and most recommend staying with r12. But that does not seem to be an option here. So how are we suppose to get rid of the r12 legally to do any maintenance and upgrading.?

Are we forced to go with r134a with the loss of effective cooling. r12 cans are available on eBay and Craigs list, but one needs a licence to buy. We do have the equipment to install r12 from the cans if we could only legally buy them..

Bottom line how is the performance of 134a, which in time is probably the only way to go. Are the gains in updating to a parallel flow condenser offset by going to r134a? If so we might just leave it as is for now. In a few years the engine is going to be refreshed requiring yet another opening of the system.

Also what is the purpose of part number 1 Vibration damper 64531353040 can is be removed. It is part of our system but does not seem to be mentioned in the past posts.

http://www.bmwmobiletradition-onlin...el=4512&mospid=47247&btnr=64_0900&hg=64&fg=55


Finally has anyone installed a modern evaporator unit while retaining the stock appearing console and face plate. Seems to us that a modern evaporator with faster fans would be the best upgrade option to go to 134a.

Thanks

jjs2800cs

 

[Stevehose]

You need a license to buy cans of r-12 off craigslist? The vibration damper was for the york piston compressor, not needed for a rotary compressor. If a shop would swap your r-12 to r-134 they'd still need to evacuate th eold r-12, no one will do this?

 

[HB Chris]

The r-134 works just fine with a parallel flow condenser so no worries there. As Steve said ditch the muffler can unless you are aiming for strict originality.

 

[JayWltrs]

Here's the rules, generally: https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vi...ioning-dos-and-donts-refrigerants-and-the-law
Basic Takeaways:
--Sellers of R12 are supposed to confirm buyer has section 608/609 Certification --ebay requires sellers confirm, craigslist doesn't
--You can get certified by taking a quiz
--Venting R12 carries a $37,000 fine & you're a bad person for doing it
--Whistleblowers can get $10,000 bounty for turning folks in

Because most shops have now sold their R12 machines, you'd need to attack it backwards, as opposed to calling every shop to see if they do it:

1. Search your local craigslist for R12. There will likely be not only sellers but people advertising to buy. Call the buyers who look like they have an actual business as opposed to a back-alley illegal operation, and ask them for a referral to someone local to recycle or reclaim it. You can also call the sellers if you have to.
2. Or Google R12 refrigerant recyclers. They want it and will pay for it and will probably tell you where you can get help capturing it.
3. If you can't find any, Google and call general refrigerant recyclers. They most likely do not do cars, but they'll probably be able to refer you to someone.
4. Plan for a bigger ordeal by finding someone farther away who still has a machine and will do it correctly.

5. I forgot how I went down this rabbit hole before. Craigslist has a bunch of old R12 service machines for sale. See if one of those people would help you out.

 

[jjs2800cs]

Thanks for replies thus far. Contacting recyclers is a great idea as well as those who are selling R12.

Commenting on Stevehose's reply that "no one will do this?" evacuating R12

Again all the shops we contacted said they no longer worked with R12 and could not evacuate it or recharge a system with it. But one shop after saying they did not have the equipment to remove the R12, said they would be happy to convert the system to R134a for us. So we asked them, before you put in the 134a do you not have to remove the R12 and if so how do you do that? All we got was silence. Go figure or are we not understanding something here?

Back to the general question

Is the gain of a parallel flow condenser offset by converting to R134a?

So if we do so, with all other things being equal

1. will we have better cooling
2. about the same cooling
3. loose cooling capability

Thanks.
jjs2800cs

 

[Stevehose]

Living in the tropics like you I went full firepower of parallel flow condensor and r-12.

 

[Gary Knox]

Put an add in your local/regional Craigslist - something like: Looking for reputable service for evacuation and refill of automobile R-12 Air Conditioning system.

Just might have someone who has the ability to do this reach out to you.

Gary

 

[sfdon]

Get a cooler and 20 #s of ice.
With an empty can in the ice the gas will move over.
Put the can in hot water and the gas will go back.
I use empty 134 cans (the big ones)

 

[pickman]

There should be an available adapter to allow the recovery of R12 for a full system evacuation -recovery, most AC shops should be able to provide a recovery. Our commercial conversions from an R-12 type refrigerant to R134 requires a bit larger condenser coil (than the OEM BMW coil)and should be parallel flow. Our cooling curves are greatly improved with more airflow over the coil in higher ambient areas, like Florida, our shop is in Jacksonville. I suggest a newer style fan/motor to increase the air flow, easily obtainable and to install. R134 is a good refrigerant pound for pound more efficient than R12 pending the right balance of coil surface area and air flow.

You do not need a license to purchase R-12 off Ebay.

 

[pickman]

Attached photos of an adapter with schrader fittings on both ends to allow the connection of a modern clip fitting.

 

[jjs2800cs]

Get a cooler and 20 #s of ice.
With an empty can in the ice the gas will move over.
Put the can in hot water and the gas will go back.
I use empty 134 cans (the big ones)

Appreciate the reply but I am clueless to visualize what you are describing. Can you be a bit more specific. Thanks.
jjs2800cs

 

[jjs2800cs]

There should be an available adapter to allow the recovery of R12 for a full system evacuation -recovery, most AC shops should be able to provide a recovery. Our commercial conversions from an R-12 type refrigerant to R134 requires a bit larger condenser coil (than the OEM BMW coil)and should be parallel flow. Our cooling curves are greatly improved with more airflow over the coil in higher ambient areas, like Florida, our shop is in Jacksonville. I suggest a newer style fan/motor to increase the air flow, easily obtainable and to install. R134 is a good refrigerant pound for pound more efficient than R12 pending the right balance of coil surface area and air flow.

You do not need a license to purchase R-12 off Ebay.

Can you suggest a larger condenser size, make and model that will fit.

I am going to fit the biggest parallel flow condenser I can and will update to a spal type fan. But still undecided if I go to R134a will that be enough to overcompensate for the loss of the cooling efficiency of R12. And of course finding someone who can get rid of the R12.

I did after a zillion phone calls find a retired AC specialist apparently working out of his garage who says he has R12 recovery equipment and a 30Lb jug of R12. He claims to have up to date licence. So I will check him out.

Thanks
jjs2800cs

 

[dang]

He creates a lower pressure with cold so the gas will flow to it. Heat it up and it pushes it out.

Most licensed auto recyclers have to have evacuation equipment for R12.

 

[pickman]

There are two posts form members that provide invaluable detail on this conversion.

https://e9coupe.com/forum/threads/air-conditioning-upgrade-photos-details.9633 from Stevehouse excellent detail on all aspects of the upgrade.

Condenser: Parallel condenser, Universal Air Conditioners Inc. Part # CN20015XC

Quarter inch aluminum plate/ six rubber cushioned bolts for 3 mounting points.

Or Nostalgic Auto has many that will fit I used 16 x 18 PN 44-1618 you may be able fit a larger coil in but this was tried and true. If your going to stay with R-12 should be an vast improvement over the OEM coil.

 

[Ohmess]

The objective of the certification procedure for working with R12 was to kill off the use of R12. The certification is cumbersome and expensive, so no profit motivated business would bother (other than the auto dismantlers who I believe can only extract, but not charge).

So, we are left with seeking out people who worked with R12 for decades, know what they are doing and are willing to continue to do work they are skilled at doing without the certification. This will always be done out of a garage, because if it is advertised some bounty hunter would set a trap so as to get in on the $10k whistle blower bounty.

 

[pickman]

Ohmess makes o good point there is some hypocrisy exhibited in the refrigerant arena. R22 was the commercial replacement for R12 they are employing the same tactics as so stated. However we ship many units to our Government filled with Nitrogen so they can fill with R22. The units cannot work on 134 or any new refrigerants.

Happy Easter!

 

[Ohmess]

Ohmess makes o good point there is some hypocrisy exhibited in the refrigerant arena. R22 was the commercial replacement for R12 they are employing the same tactics as so stated. However we ship many units to our Government filled with Nitrogen so they can fill with R22. The units cannot work on 134 or any new refrigerants.

Happy Easter!

Happy Easter to you too!

 

[Bwana]

You might try your local (or not so) vintage hot rod/restoration shops. I have a local shop that does a lot of the mods for the cruising and show circuit crowd and he has the R12 equipment. Don't bother with A/C shops as they can't be bothered to maintain the R12 equipment for such little use.