RestoMod vs. Original and their Values

D B Couper

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Please forgive me if this seems bitchy it is not intended that way...I am just baffled. I see the Baikal 2800csa that has been thoroughly updated and modified so it is no longer what it started out as and there are full price offers galore with folks competing to be the "one". Now it is certainly a lovely car and worth every penny of the asking price, but it is really a RestoMod in the very best sense of that word.

Meanwhile I cannot get any traction with what is a really "nice car" based on your comments here and on opinions of knowledgeable BMW folks. You all encouraged me to not under estimate the value and repeated the adage that it is only original once and still...

I wish the fellow in Seattle all the best with his decision whether to sell yet I don't understand the lack of interest in original e9 coupes. Where is the preference for an original car that seems prevalent in virtually every other marque I follow. Can someone explain what is different about e9s?
 

Sven

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A few random thoughts on that subject

1. An original automatic CS is probably worth less than an equivalent condition modified manual transmission CS.

2. The bone stock e9 has some minor flaws which can be tastefully fixed: lowering of the car, 5 spd, better suspension, removal of US DOT stuff, seat belt sign removal, modern ECU, comfortable front seats, radio upgrade, etc.

3. The trend set by CK and La Jolla probably has influenced some of us as to what is considered acceptable.

4. Most of the modifications done are not really apparent to the casual observer. If we as a group of e9 users don't place value on bone stock originality then it's only up to the individual owner to care what they prefer. Comparing two perfect condition e9's, one modified and the other bone stock, which would garner the higher price?

5. The e9 is such a driveable car that a few modifications make it that much better. How many use it as a daily driver? You might not say that for a Jag e-type.

6. The CSL's seem to fall more into what you might expect for maintaining originality over modifications. Because of the smaller numbers? Special subset of the e9's?
 

bubukitty

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I agree with Tightbox re. Coupeking and that the car was gone through and some restoration work done by Peter's shop. Your car is original and that is terrific, but as it has not been "freshened" by a shop and particularly Peter's shop, perhaps there are those that do not know all of what might need to be done to your car (if anything). Also, the Baikal Blue is a very nice color. Agave is a good color too, however, perhaps the Baikal color is more to people's liking? I do not know. I think your car is excellent and very desirable, however, my personal preference is for a color other than Agave. Others may like Agave more.

I think it will take the right buyer who wants an Agave coupe to purchase your car. I'm sure you noticed on EBay the Agave 3.0 coupe for sale at Daniel Schmitt where they want $70,000 and you probably have seen some of the remarks here in the forum on that car. I think they are way off the mark on their pricing for that car. It is nice, but there are things that need to be corrected with that car. I think your pricing is good, however, bear in mind that the market speaks. If you unable to sell your car on EBay for the price you want, and it only goes to a certain level, then the market is telling you what the price of your car really is. I see people listing their cars over and over again on EBay, hoping to get the price they want and hoping that someone who has not seen the car before will bid up the price more. I have not seen where this has been successful and generally, the follow up auction for the item has a lower price or a "Buy it Now/Best Offer" option. EBay reaches a huge audience of potential buyers. If they are not willing to pay you $30,000 for your car, then it is likely not worth the price you want for it and you should consider taking the highest offered price. If you want to "move" your car down the road, then you should consider this. At a live auction, the same thinking prevails, that is why some people "lift the reserve" on their car when it is on the block so they can sell their car right there and then and take the money being offered for it. I hope my comments are helpful, for what they are worth.
 

bfeng

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My reasons for getting excited about this car are not so much coupe king

I think I'm looking for what most of us want.
(1) A no-stories car done to a super clean "driver" level.
(2) Options: Sunroof, AC are important
(3) Manual transmission, 5spd OD preferred
(4) LSD preferred, it makes a big difference in the handling
(5) Originality is best, but if there are upgrades then they should be sensible and done in a manner that won't cause future problems.
(6) colors are important, this is a great combination.
(7) fresh and possibly updated suspension and brakes (BMW's are drivers first, collectors second).

That coupe king worked on this car is of no value to me. Looking through photos on his website, I see good and I see questionable work. What is of value is whether or not any repair/restoration work on a specific car was done properly in a manner that ensures it will last (documented photos are always a big plus, but the photos in this case do not show the completed rust repairs ... other than the floors). The name on the invoice is almost irrelevant whether it be CK, Werkshop, or something else.

Let's revisit what you wrote in your post way back when you bought the agave car, " I specified a Nachtblau or Atlantik 3.0 CS with a five speed upgrade and preferably an engine upgrade to 3.5 liters." This sounds like the car Bryce is selling, right? So it should be no surprise he car has instant appeal to many. Plus your car, which is beautiful IMHO, has needs. For example, from your description some of the wood needs redoing (figure $1k for Bela's kit), door dings fixed, engine bay sounds cosmetically tired (price out what it costs to respray an engine bay $$), you still have the 4spd ($2k to upgrade to a 5spd), I don't recall your car has a SR (important for older cars with limited cabin ventilation), etc.

So, I think your car sounds really attractive, but you couldn't turn yours into the condition or configuration of Bryce's car for $3k. If your car lacks a sunroof, that's easily a $7k upgrade all by itself.

So, the real comparison is the value of original paint and interior (mostly) versus a better performing E9 with (arguably) with better options, better color and substantially better overall condition.

I don't mean to dis your coupe. I actually really like it. Agave is a favorite of mine because it's so very correct for that era.
 
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CSteve

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As Click&Clack say, "Wait for the third half of the show." I agree with ALL of the above. Our cars will sell for what they are worth, not what other, somewhat similar but different cars will sell for. I don't pay attention to asking prices. Actually, I don't pay attention to prices except when the topic comes up on this forum.
There is a buyer out there for all our cars at the right price. I don't like sunroofs, I do like originality but can live with mods. I am not a purist, I am one in a huge pool with vastly different tastes and preferences and needs.

Finally, as I have said many times before, I own a coupe because they are so beautiful.
And how they drive.
I could care less if it appreciates, depreciates. It is NOT an investment - when it comes to cars that word is not in my vocabulary.
 

Stevehose

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I also love your car and if I didn't have one already I would have bought it, and I encouraged a friend of mine (you've spoken with him) to look seriously at it.

For me the issue is the fender lip damage, to repair this is to repaint the entire car, touching up original paint at this point would not blend so there goes the original paint issue. So that adds significant amount (10k?) to get the car repainted to my liking. 30k + 10k = 40k and therein lies the difference for me. I love Agave but admittedly Baikal is the one color I'd prefer to all others including my Polaris enough to sell mine, but I'm content.

Unless an Inka CSL gets delivered to my door....
 
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decoupe

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The Resto vs Original

Ebay may be "the market" (whole other discussion what it is) but it isn't necessarily "your market". Your market would be the serious collector or BMW CCA member and BMW club members internationally (Euroupe, Canada, Aus and NZ) or members the various BMW interest groups/forums (mye28 for example) . Look for the market that will best value what you are offering. This forum does not cover all the current owners and cars out there and they have friends dying for an e9 like their buddy/uncle/partners - try to access that "market".

Haven't looked at your advertisement or ebay listing but most adverts really don't do justice to the car and when we see one that does you see comments to that effect.

Patience is part of the equation if you want to get what you think the car is worth. Having to sell puts you in a poor bargaining position - what to sell isn't much better. Being willing to sell is where the best return comes from.

Lastly, and I know it's counter intuitive, raising your price is sometimes the right thing to do as the message to the market is the price isn't going down and any one thinking about an offer needs to act. A sense of urgency. This has worked many times for us in the real estate development business.

My .02 worth
 

D B Couper

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Sven wrote"The bone stock e9 has some minor flaws which can be tastefully fixed". Well, that is true of virtually every car from the 60's and 70's isn't it? Yet most prize originality.

Bubukitty wrote, " as it has not been "freshened" by a shop and particularly Peter's shop, perhaps there are those that do not know all of what might need to be done to your car".
I haven't even had anyone ask me what might need to be done (as far as I know, nothing) but freshening implies restoring and hence not original. Still confused.

Bfeng and Stevehose both think it unacceptable as it is for different reasons but the common thread is it needs to be updated/refreshed to be acceptable.

OK I think I get it. e9 coupes aren't good enough in original condition and have to be "updated" with modern parts to be daily drivers. I do get this, as was noted, that is where I started my search and I absolutely understand it makes a better driving car. But in my other car worlds there is a fanatical devotion to original even though, of course, it isn't as good in today's driving environment. If you upgrade an E type with and alternator and an electric fan so it won't overheat you have committed heresy! I have a friend with an early 911 with a 2.4 liter engine and while you would never know form looking it devalues the car by thousands of dollars. There is a separate forum section on the Lotus Elan.net for cars that have mods as they aren't "Real" anymore.

What you all answered was interesting and I get that an original car will not sell for what you all suggested it would before, but I still don't get why original is not as valued.And, I'm not seeking to argue, only to understand why e9's are different.
 
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Stan

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long standing discussion

It can be argued, that until recently, all E9's have been undervalued when compared with other cars of the same price range new from that same era. Why is it that a maintained unrestored 1973 911 will command huge dollar and not a coupe?

Who knows, supply and demand. not exotic enough? Whatever the reason, th prices have stayed low and those of us who love them (for the most part) like th 3.5, 5spd, LSD, disc brake car. Most, not all. There is a buyer for you car. Advertise in the BMW Roundel, Hemingways and other forums.
 

bfeng

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I must not have been very clear...

I think the real issue is that the majority of BMW enthusiasts value the driving experience and performance over originality. We like driving so much that we value upgrades over originality.

It's the opposite for many other marques. On my Jag's, I'm still using points/condensor, drum brakes, and brass carb floats. One of them is still setup as "positive ground," making it incompatible with any modern electrical accessory. But, the Jag crowd is obsessed with originality, and a 100pt championship car is a completely different beast than something which might win at a national CCA concours. The most expensive set of tires you can buy for an old Jag are the originals that came with the car. Good for driving the 150 yards from the trailer to the show and then back to the trailer.

Will BMW owners ever start appreciating 100% originality and patinated survivors? They already do, but only for the pre-war stuff. The 1970's and on BMW's are just to common, IMHO, to justify the trouble and inconvenience of keeping them 100% original. Exceptions to this include the E9 CSL, 2002 turbo, M1, and the full blown factory Alpina cars (B2's, A4S, etc.).

I know it doesn't seem fair, but that's just the nature of it all.

John
 

bfeng

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Stan, would you have bought your car for your current

investment into it if it were a near perfect condition, but 100% original (color, paint, drivetrain, interior, etc.)?
 

decoupe

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Also scroll back through the classified Cars here and see if there are any WTB Original posts of people looking that may have given up. Put a For Sale on the 2002faq forum - you never know.
 

NewSixCoupe

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Please forgive me if this seems bitchy it is not intended that way...I am just baffled. I see the Baikal 2800csa that has been thoroughly updated and modified so it is no longer what it started out as and there are full price offers galore with folks competing to be the "one". Now it is certainly a lovely car and worth every penny of the asking price, but it is really a RestoMod in the very best sense of that word.

Meanwhile I cannot get any traction with what is a really "nice car" based on your comments here and on opinions of knowledgeable BMW folks. You all encouraged me to not under estimate the value and repeated the adage that it is only original once and still...

I wish the fellow in Seattle all the best with his decision whether to sell yet I don't understand the lack of interest in original e9 coupes. Where is the preference for an original car that seems prevalent in virtually every other marque I follow. Can someone explain what is different about e9s?
I ask myself this all the time, and still haven't come across an adequate answer. I don't buy the "BMW owners like to drive their cars" explanation because you can't imagine more of a driver's car than my Ferrari 328, yet veering from originality in that world can seriously affect value. The El Camino 2002 currently on Germancarsforsaleblog.com is a perfect example of what I thnk of as la k of respect for the marque.
 

NewSixCoupe

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I think the real issue is that the majority of BMW enthusiasts value the driving experience and performance over originality. We like driving so much that we value upgrades over originality.

It's the opposite for many other marques. On my Jag's, I'm still using points/condensor, drum brakes, and brass carb floats. One of them is still setup as "positive ground," making it incompatible with any modern electrical accessory. But, the Jag crowd is obsessed with originality, and a 100pt championship car is a completely different beast than something which might win at a national CCA concours. The most expensive set of tires you can buy for an old Jag are the originals that came with the car. Good for driving the 150 yards from the trailer to the show and then back to the trailer.

Will BMW owners ever start appreciating 100% originality and patinated survivors? They already do, but only for the pre-war stuff. The 1970's and on BMW's are just to common, IMHO, to justify the trouble and inconvenience of keeping them 100% original. Exceptions to this include the E9 CSL, 2002 turbo, M1, and the full blown factory Alpina cars (B2's, A4S, etc.).

I know it doesn't seem fair, but that's just the nature of it all.

John
John,

I can understand your point about commonality, but as time passes finding an original coupe is like searching for the Holy Grail. I guess that type of car is for a specific type of buyer, mentioned...
 

Stevehose

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I agree, I think the majority of coupe owners presently are in it for John's reasons, we are drivers and like Steve O said, less concerned as a speculative investment. As more of the traditional collectors discover these cars they will default to what they feel comfortable with - originality. We're not there yet. My car has been repainted (what metallic e9 that has seen the outdoors hasn't?) but I try to preserve the original interior and matching engine as best I can, and any mods I make are reversible with the future in mind.

Patience will find the right buyer, it's too nice a car not to.

John,

I can understand your point about commonality, but as time passes finding an original coupe is like searching for the Holy Grail. I guess that type of car is for a specific type of buyer, mentioned...
 

rsporsche

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i own a nice modified driver - my opinion is that most of us want a great car to drive ... hence the desire for mods like 3.5L / 5 speed / lowered w/ suspension mods - but it was a CSA conversion. my car was originally baikal, but the PO repainted it black. i have a car that is as rust-free as they can be found. because my car is far from original, i wouldn't pull back from putting an S38 engine in it.

but give me the opportunity to have a numbers matching car in similar shape - in a color i like with original cs or csi / 4 speed serial number ... i would probably jump on it - unless it was unreasonably priced.

but that's just me, for the long haul, a car with a hope of originality is what i would like to have - and if i had the original engine, i could rebuild the head / engine and make it a hotter engine w/ side drafts - but could return it to stock if needed.
 

scottd

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All very good points. One thing I think might keep the value a bit low on your car is the mileage. While 150000 miles isn't a problem, (do I recall that correctly?) buyers may be concerned that an original car with that kind of mileage may have more "needs" than you are saying it needs. I think eBay isn't the best place for your car and it will take the right buyer from another avenue.

Has anyone contacted you, and if so what questions are they asking? That might help you adjust your approach.
 
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