RHD CSL Thoughts

[m5toureg]

On my part I can not understand all the positive value comments in favour
of this car. A RHD UK CSL is more or less a ,normal‘ CSI with a CSL badge
and some aluminium parts. It still is an E9 and can be a nice car, but value ??
Just my own personal thoughts n there4 ,let me down easy’.
PS: note = the dash-board lower part in WOOD = RHD CSL specific !! picture below !!

Edit: This thread was split from the following RHD classified discussion:

72 CSL on Bat...

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-bmw-3-0csl-4/

e9coupe.com

 

[Markos]

A RHD UK CSL is more or less a ,normal‘ CSI with a CSL badge and some aluminium parts.

I hate to say it, but all CSL’s are just a CSI with aluminum parts. That doesn’t make them any less special or rare.

What is the difference between a RHD city pack without power windows and bumpers and a 2275 lightweight? Are you suggesting that they used standard sheetmetal on RHD cars? I honestly don’t know.

The car that sold had an aluminum trunk, hood, and doors, which means it also had aluminum hinges. The seller verified this with a magnet, but save for the hinges, this can all be verified in the pics.

I guess I’ll just have to keep investing in Nintendo games.

The Legend of Zelda NES WATA 8.5 A Factory Sealed New Unopened VGA | eBay

Graded WATA 8.5 A. This is the rare "promotional copy" version, which was sold through Nintendo Power.

www.ebay.com

 

[tferrer]

I hate to say it, but all CSL’s are just a CSI with aluminum parts. That doesn’t make them any less special or rare.

What is the difference between a RHD city pack without power windows and bumpers and a 2275 lightweight? Are you suggesting that they used standard sheetmetal on RHD cars? I honestly don’t know.

The car that sold had an aluminum trunk, hood, and doors, which means it also had aluminum hinges. The seller verified this with a magnet, but save for the hinges, this can all be verified in the pics.

I guess I’ll just have to keep investing in Nintendo games.

The Legend of Zelda NES WATA 8.5 A Factory Sealed New Unopened VGA | eBay

Graded WATA 8.5 A. This is the rare "promotional copy" version, which was sold through Nintendo Power.

www.ebay.com

Not really.. The body panels are thinner. Not the work of a few bolt on parts. Regardless, there are umpteen examples of homologation specials with 10-20x the value of the street versions. It's low volume/homologation circumstances /collectability impacts the value, not necessarily anything about how inherently "special" it is from an ownership /driving dynamic perspective. Hell 73RS tourings don't even have a special chassis construction and look at the values there... Lot of factors at play

 

[m5toureg]

@tferrer - „lot of factors at play“ = indeed…..some of them are simply
difficult to understand why they shud qualify for a MUCH higher value as a result….
as for ,rarity‘ >>> total production E9 RHD
- 3.0 CSL RHD ,City Package‘ = 500x
- 3.0 CSI RHD = 207x
- 3.0 CSA RHD = 215x

 

[tferrer]

@tferrer - „lot of factors at play“ = indeed…..some of them are simply
difficult to understand why they shud qualify for a MUCH higher value as a result….
as for ,rarity‘ >>> total production E9 RHD
- 3.0 CSL RHD ,City Package‘ = 500x
- 3.0 CSI RHD = 207x
- 3.0 CSA RHD = 215x

Like I said. Lots of factors. Not just the number made. Perfect example is carb CSLs. They should be 700-800k if rarity was the major factor. You're also talking about RHD cars. RHD cars will always have a limited market in the US IMHO. On top of that, BaT is a fickle place!

 

[Markos]

Not really.. The body panels are thinner. Not the work of a few bolt on parts. Regardless, there are umpteen examples of homologation specials with 10-20x the value of the street versions. It's low volume/homologation circumstances /collectability impacts the value, not necessarily anything about how inherently "special" it is from an ownership /driving dynamic perspective. Hell 73RS tourings don't even have a special chassis construction and look at the values there... Lot of factors at play

I don’t disagree. My point was rather abstract and likely not well articulated.

@m5toureg seems to be suggesting that the RHD CSL doesn’t have thin sheetmetal, which I frankly am not sure. I thought that all CSL’s used the same gauge metal. Many people think that RHD CSL’s don’t have aluminum doors, but I believe that they all do, even with power windows. I look for forward to any clarification.

You can make any CSI or CS out perform a CSL, but it will never be a CSL. This holds true for any mark.

 

[tferrer]

My point was rather abstract and likely not well articulated

Shocking! ;-)

 

[Propellerhead_tom]

I don’t disagree. My point was rather abstract and likely not well articulated.

@m5toureg seems to be suggesting that the RHD CSL doesn’t have thin sheetmetal, which I frankly am not sure. I thought that all CSL’s used the same gauge metal. Many people think that RHD CSL’s don’t have aluminum doors, but I believe that they all do, even with power windows. I look for forward to any clarification.

You can make any CSI or CS out perform a CSL, but it will never be a CSL. This holds true for any mark.

I owned 2285269 a Golf RHD CityPak car and the doors were steel. I sold it to a gentleman from New Zealand and heard he skinned the doors in Aluminum after he bought it.

 

[m5toureg]

@m5toureg seems to be suggesting that the RHD CSL doesn’t have thin sheetmetal,

@Markos - sorry, but where does THAT come from ?? I never said/wrote that n I am NOT suggesting it.
On the contrary, RHD CSL have thin sheetmetal body shelfs (as otherwise they would NOT count
for the homologation process, the very reason why they were built to start with…..).
These cars were all built to the same specifications (upon request of the U.K. importer = and yes
exceptions seem to have been possible….) AND compared with the LHD CSL with City Package (!!)
the RHD CSLs (all City Package) were built with aluminium doors, hood n trunk, whereby the weight
saving was destroyed by the CIty Package as per the specifications in the picture provided in one of
my earlier contributions…..

 

[Markos]

@Markos - sorry, but where does THAT come from ?? I never said/wrote that n I am NOT suggesting it.

I must have misinterpreted your comment below. You called out the aluminum bits but otherwise seem to suggest that the cars are equivalent. Isn’t that what you said?

A RHD UK CSL is more or less a ,normal‘ CSI with a CSL badge and some aluminium parts.

 

[m5toureg]

I owned 2285269 a Golf RHD CityPak car and the doors were steel. I sold it to a gentleman from New Zealand and heard he skinned the doors in Aluminum after he bought it.

It is apparent that SOME cars (RHD CSL „City Package“) were indeed refitted with steel doors, because
many U.K. buyers/users would not accept to have to live with the not very practical and sensitive Alu parts.
thus, in the early days these cars were actually used and regularly driven…

 

[BMW Pete]

Not sure why but I always thought driving a RHD car in the states is cool.

It is - I often do it in my Taiga car and love watching people do double takes

 

[Wes]

Yes, I wrote that. Misunderstanding indeed. My reference was the “U.K. City Package”,
NOT the body shelf, because otherwise these cars would NOT be CSLs, built for and to
be counted for in the homologation process, at all.
-
A RHD UK CSL is more or less a ,normal‘ CSI with a CSL badge and some aluminium parts
and despite the thin metal body shelf.

I don't agree with that statement at all. It's like saying a VW Beetle is basically a Porsche 911.

City Pack RHD CSL's had the following CSL parts, Alpina wheels, alloy panels, sports seats, lightweight hood lining, thinner steel, petri wheel and sometimes a boot lip. Some have also manual front windows - those seem to be the early 'drive back cars.'

Show me a CSi with those things as factory? Show me a CSi with factory racing pedigree, or homologation status?

The CSi in this case is the Beetle to the CSL's 911.

It's not as you suggest that the RHD CSL is basically a CSi variant. The CSi is actually the mass produced variant for those that couldn't get a CSL. Yes some common DNA but actually nothing alike.

The 'Pack' was simply an option package specific the RHD CSLs so they could compete with Jaguar and Aston, among other UK makers, who gave buyers more options and creature comforts, and is can easily be changed so the car reflects LHD (or dare I say normal) CSL specification.

The specifics of just what exactly 'City Pack' means is also contested as it seems buyers had discretion as to what they wanted on their cars to a certain degree.

I've heard some didn't come with the tool kit either, same as the LHD specification, but not confirmed this.

The other key difference that you haven't mentioned is the driving experience. I've been lucky enough to drive both. I can assure you they are very different beasts. The CSi is a gentleman's cruiser and a wonderful comfy drive. You appreciate the power steering and creature comforts.

The CSL is hot, loud and fast and most of all light, frequently terrifying your passenger - but that might just be my driving.
Rant Over

 

[m5toureg]

@Wes @Markos
,Let me down easy’. Where do I start ?
1) the steering wheel (this might interest @Markos specifically, unless he is aware)
- RHD CSL had a standard sport steering wheel, NOT a Petri alike the LHD CSL
2) total production E9 RHD
- 3.0 CSL RHD ,City Package‘ = 500x
- 3.0 CSI RHD = 207x
- 3.0 CSA RHD = 215x
3) driving experience = the RHD CSL had the complete suspension package both
front and rear from the CSI = same (also the ,normal’ sound isolation CSI)
4) bonnet n truck hold up and secure = same as CSi
5) curiosity: dashboard upperlist in WOOD (U.K. RHD CSL specific)
6) the RHD City Package (contrary to the LHD drive CSL cars) was NOT an option package,
they were ALL built with that package -
unless > see below = customer demands and variations
7) the RHD CSL had ordinary and proper sound insolation and the normal carpets.
-
The whole idea with the RHD CSL was to meet the homologation requirements
as to production and SALE as soon as possible, as time was short to meet
the dead-line date. At the time the market was not very enthusiastic for a ,real’
light-weight CSL. These cars were expensive compared to others, both BMWs
and other brands/models. In order to make these cars more attractive to the average
potential customer, The RHD City Package was invented. In fact, in oder to push
and promote the sale figures of the ‘homologation special’, delivery/supply of
RHD CSi cars to the UK was temporarily stopped. The ,English gentlemen’ however,
who could effort and wanted an E9 Coupe, did NOT fancy the narrow Scheel seats
nor the sensitive aluminium doors. So the CSI choice returned to the U.K. customer.
So far, so good. I take a break here.
-
I take it that we all -here- are enthusiastic for these cars, irrespective of CSi or CSL
and there is no real need that we all agree on everything.
UK RHD CSL are cars defined by their VIN to be a homologation model car.
So, irrespective of how much CSI-similar/alike = they are a model car, VIN
defined in their own rights, of course.
-
My point was/is, except for the thin metal body and the aluminium parts, these
cars are both from the visual appearance and also the driving experience,
VERY much alike and similar to a ,normal’ CSI.
-
Last, but not least, due to the difficulties to sell these cars, in time before the
dead-line of the homologation process = the UK importer/dealer was
extremely flexible towards customers special requests, one of many reasons
why you can find so many different set ups and variations with these cars
both ,at the time‘ and even more so ,after all these years’.
-
Cheers and have a nice weekend ,wherever you are’.

 

[Markos]

I get what you are saying @m5toureg.

About the point that might interest me. The steering wheel. I know you have a picture of a brochure with the inka CSL that you posted earlier. While that car has a 380 Alpina, just about every RHD CSL that I have seen has a 380 Petri.

That little two sided pamphlet is full of confusing and contradictory points. Here is the front side. Did the RHD CSL also have the wind foil on the passenger side, and extra long center caps?

I also don’t know the answer to most of these questions.

Did any E9 have stainless steel bumpers?
Did European cars get green window tint?
Was the e9 undercoating ever black?

 

[Markos]

@Wes,

Here is my take:

You could easily remove the sound deadening, carpet, rear torsion bar, power windows, etc on a RHD CSL. While shedding a few hundred lbs, it would still be an oem+ CSL with unmatched factory performance and a CSL VIN.

If you did the same with a CSI, you would have a lightened CSI in the form of a CSL tribute car. It is still heavier than a CSL, less performant, and 50-75% the value.

The fact is that many CSL owners (and forum members) have modified or purchased CSL that are modified to be closer to a lightweight, look like a batmobile, or claim to be a 4354 batmobile. For instance, just about every CSL has a front air dam on it now, and many are running rear duckbills and roof hoops. Despite the chit chat about originality, modified CSL’s still garner interest with existing CSL owners and new buyers.

Regardless of what has been added or removed, CSL’s are special cars that make up less than 4% of the original e9 population. They have direct ties to motorsport.

If people want to crap on RHD cars, it just leaves more headroom for the more inclusive CSL enthusiast. Personally, it pains me that merely six years ago when I was driving an e9 rust bucket home, I could have purchased a lovely RHD CSL for the cost of a poverty-spec five series.

 

[m5toureg]

@Markos - I am more into the historical facts…..when it comes to what one, can do,
should do and/or a personal driving pleasure experience…..then fact finding is
over and things will get out of proportion sooner or later…
-
You said “”That little two sided pamphlet is full of confusing and contradictory points””.
True, many of BMW pamphlets and brochures include incorrect details, wrong pictures
(incl photo-shop I.e. non existing vehicles). To some extend because the lay out, text
and specifications have to be ready for print, long before the actual cars going into
assembly.
The wind foil passenger side wiper is either incorrectly fitted OR the car on the picture
actually is a LHD car. I have checked a number of RHD CSL pictures and they ALL
have the wiper wind foil mounted on the driver’s side.
-
You said “”Regardless of what has been added or removed, CSL’s are special cars that
make up less than 4% of the original e9 population.””
I repeat the E9 RHD production figures:
- 3.0 CSL RHD ,City Package‘ = 500x
- 3.0 CSI RHD = 207x
- 3.0 CSA RHD = 215x
-
…..and finally, OF COURSE you can take a RHD CSL VIN car, dismantle it completely
and re-built it entirely to LHD 2nd generation CSL “light weight” specifications….
“originality guys” might not like it but you can drive it ,mit Freude am fahren’.
-
= no crap on RHD cars…..
in fact, most people on our planet are driving in ,left lane’ traffic.

 

[Markos]

The wind foil passenger side wiper is either incorrectly fitted OR the car on the picture
actually is a LHD car. I have checked a number of RHD CSL pictures and they ALL
have the wiper wind foil mounted on the driver’s side.

Definitely RHD:

I repeat the E9 RHD production figures:
- 3.0 CSL RHD ,City Package‘ = 500x
- 3.0 CSI RHD = 207x
- 3.0 CSA RHD = 215x

Surely you know how I got to that CSL figure.

30,565 Total E9’s / 1,265 CSL = 4%

I did calculate under 4% the first time due to guessing E9 production count. If I start comparing LHD and RHD, then color and options, I’ll start sounding like Alec Cartio.

Nothing about this is correct…

 

[m5toureg]

@Markos - where is this leading us ? ,ok‘ let‘s play on for a another while….
-
If the car on the cover of the pamphlet is indeed a RHD car, which it should be.
Then, why you ask?? Because, if so, the wiper arrangement is of course wrong,
on a photo, press, brochure car ??
How do you KNOW it is RHD ? Do you see a shadow/light reflection of the
steering wheel in that photograph ?
-
“””30,565 Total E9’s / 1,265 CSL = 4%”””
= what is your point in the context of the 500 RHD CSL ?
f.ex. 30.565 total E9 / 844 E9 2.5 CS/CSA = 2,75 %
-
That video presentation….. I had seen it before….at least he got the
total number of production CSL cars right. Please be restrictive to pass on such
videos in forums or otherwise as it will only increase the already wide spread
confusion on and about E9 CSL facts.
-
Cheers and have a nice weekend.

 

[Wes]

@Markos - where is this leading us ? ,ok‘ let‘s play on for a another while….
-
If the car on the cover of the pamphlet is indeed a RHD car, which it should be.
Then, why you ask?? Because, if so, the wiper arrangement is of course wrong,
on a photo, press, brochure car ??
How do you KNOW it is RHD ? Do you see a shadow/light reflection of the
steering wheel in that photograph ?
-
“””30,565 Total E9’s / 1,265 CSL = 4%”””
= what is your point in the context of the 500 RHD CSL ?
f.ex. 30.565 total E9 / 844 E9 2.5 CS/CSA = 2,75 %
-
That video presentation….. I had seen it before….at least he got the
total number of production CSL cars right. Please be restrictive to pass on such
videos in forums or otherwise as it will only increase the already wide spread
confusion on and about E9 CSL facts.
-
Cheers and have a nice weekend.

I'd say the two images in the brochure showing the Petri on the right hand side probably gives @Markos a reasonable degree of confidence to claim it's a RHD car