Starter stories

[bluecoupe30!]

OK, so its my turn to replace my original starter. I have a Weber carbed '72 CS.
Have read many tales of woe that popped up with a "search" here, and have accepted that this job ranks high on the : "never want to do again" list. I take solace in have lived through a heater core replacement in my son's E36-real bonding moments over several days there! So I believe I have seen bottom and feel like I can move forward.
I have noted that the Bosch SR441X is a popular replacement for the original unit. I have located my slim Heyco 17mm wrench in the trunk lid toolkit, have procured expendable 17 mm sockets to cut down, other sacrificial 17mm wrenches to bend, grind, throw..and am about to start in. However, there have been many references to having to remove back intake manifold and carb. Really would like to avoid this. Please...someone...tell me that they have completed this mission without having to resort to removing that back manifold.
Plus, any particular electrical connections that are different when trying to connect the 441x? Wish it was all as easy as the common Autobooks/Haynes/Blue Book entries that simply state, disconnect negative cable from battery, detach wires from solenoid , unbolt starter and lift away! Any tips/recollections/notes of encouragement welcome. Thanks, Mike

 

[HB Chris]

The only caution I have is that the SR-71x, SR-440x and SR-441x all fit but the terminals have one minor difference. If you still run the ballast resistor with your coil your current starter has a terminal that sends "switched" power to the coil. With a permanent magnet starter this isn't needed but if you hook it up to a terminal that is hot your ballast will glow cherry red! I think my 441 did this, just don't connect that bypass wire.

 

[bluecoupe30!]

starter

Whoa.. Thanks Chris, just the input I was looking for. I do have that ballast. Funny thing is, I also have a rebuilt SR71X I got when a friend parted out his Coupe and spared a few A/C bits plus this reman starter as I have since discovered. Hmmm
I have read that the 441X is superior, but if I have the patience, plus this ballast, perhaps I just replace with this reman 71X. Just double up on the patience....
Mike

 

[jmackro]

Have read many tales of woe that popped up with a "search" here, and have accepted that this job ranks high on the : "never want to do again" list.

I removed and replaced my e9 starter and thought the job was a piece of cake. I removed the rear intake manifold (I run downdrafts, not DCOE's) for access, and the rest was simple. Heck compared with my Alfas, R&R'ing the e9 starter is really easy - you can even see it while standing up - what more could you ask for?

Can't comment on terminals for the ballast resistor, but believe me, removing and re-installing the starter is nothing like R&R'ing a heater core.

there have been many references to having to remove back intake manifold and carb. Really would like to avoid this

Just re-read your post, including the above sentence. So what's your phobia about removing the back intake manifold? Any other approach will be far more difficult.

 

[bluecoupe30!]

starter

Hey Jay,
Phobia comes from many examples of "while this is off, I can do this now, and then this..." Was sorta hoping to contain the job creep. But perhaps I can look at it this way, it appears time can be saved by removing rear manifold, then perhaps have time for a "bonus" upgrade while I am in there. Mike

 

[Stevehose]

Exactly! While the rear one is off you will then want to clean up/repaint the block, find all the dropped fasteners from the past 40 years, install new hoses, gaskets, etc. The you'll go ahead and take the front manifold off....

But better to replace that tiny carb coolant hose now then have to get to it later!

Hey Jay,
Phobia comes from many examples of "while this is off, I can do this now, and then this..." Was sorta hoping to contain the job creep. But perhaps I can look at it this way, it appears time can be saved by removing rear manifold, then perhaps have time for a "bonus" upgrade while I am in there. Mike

 

[HB Chris]

And not all SR-71x starters are permanent magnet with the smaller case. If it is it spins much quicker, the 440 and 441 are very similar, the difference in output won't be noticeable.

 

[bluecoupe30!]

starter

well now, possible compatible starters is an entire subject in itself, thanks for the edification Chris. Steve, say I do get those manifolds and carbs off, finish that starter re and re, then have a look at that dull engine block, what paint product/colour would you suggest?
Mike

 

[Stevehose]

I clean and mask/tarp everything off and use high temp engine semigloss black. Where you can't spray you can spray it onto a foam brush then paint it on.

Makes future touch up easy. Order new carb-manifold base gaskets and manifold-head gaskets. Do all the little hoses.

well now, possible compatible starters is an entire subject in itself, thanks for the edification Chris. Steve, say I do get those manifolds and carbs off, finish that starter re and re, then have a look at that dull engine block, what paint product/colour would you suggest?
Mike

 

[bluecoupe30!]

starter

OK I can do that. Great way to turn a problem into an opportunity. As the temperature outside dips, I can create my winter to-do list. "Starts" with this. Thanks again Steve for more great advice.
Mike

 

[bavbob]

Perhaps and E3 differs but on my E3, I removed the carb only, never touched the manifold. Major issue was actually getting the old starter out once disconnected. The SR 441x is the go to replacement in the E24 world...also much smaller so a breeze to get in and also a breeze to remove should that time come again.

FYI: I got my SR441x from Autohaus AZ and I sent back my old starter as the core and did not get any hassle for it not being a one to one swap.

 

[bluecoupe30!]

starter

Thanks BavBob,
I like Autohauz AZ, great suggestions. I am going in!
Mike

 

[bill]

The only caution I have is that the SR-71x, SR-440x and SR-441x all fit but the terminals have one minor difference. If you still run the ballast resistor with your coil your current starter has a terminal that sends "switched" power to the coil. With a permanent magnet starter this isn't needed but if you hook it up to a terminal that is hot your ballast will glow cherry red! I think my 441 did this, just don't connect that bypass wire.

Help me understand:the switched wire to which you refer supplies battery voltage to the distributor, bypassing the ballast, while the ignition is in the "start" position. Battery voltage temporarily goes through the points and coil, providing a hotter spark to get the engine running. When the engine starts, and the ignition goes to "run" position, this direct connection shuts off, and battery voltage then is supplied through the ballast, reducing the voltage through the coil and points, providing longer life (mainly to the points.) So would you not want to maintain that connection even with the replacement starters? Or is ballast-reduced voltage enough to start and run the engine?

 

[Stevehose]

My car starts fine with ballast reduced voltage.

Help me understand:the switched wire to which you refer supplies battery voltage to the distributor, bypassing the ballast, while the ignition is in the "start" position. Battery voltage temporarily goes through the points and coil, providing a hotter spark to get the engine running. When the engine starts, and the ignition goes to "run" position, this direct connection shuts off, and battery voltage then is supplied through the ballast, reducing the voltage through the coil and points, providing longer life (mainly to the points.) So would you not want to maintain that connection even with the replacement starters? Or is ballast-reduced voltage enough to start and run the engine?

 

[HB Chris]

The permanent magnet starters spin so quickly and with less effort that the ballast bypass isn't needed.

 

[KHB]

I decided to rebuild the carbs this winter and did the rear one first to get it's removal/installation over with. Then the while you're in there starts. Might as well remove the manifold and replace the original starter and a couple of the harder to reach water hoses. I went with the SR441X based on the recommendations on this forum.

My intent was to make initial carb adjustments while both were on the bench. Glad I didn't. Put the rear carb back on yesterday so I could start the car after sitting 11 salt covered road weeks. I turned the key on to run the electric fuel pump to fill the bowls and check for leaks. Smelled something electrically hot and it turned out to be the ballast resistor. Decided to try starting it anyway. Started very easily and then died after about 2-3 seconds. Started it a second time, same thing. For the 2 seconds, it was running great. Probably did this 5 times and then gave up since it was late afternoon. It didn't sputter and die it just died each time.

Sunday evening I searched the forum and luckily came across this thread. I should add that I have Pertronix and their coil. Tonight I disconnected the black/red wire from the solenoid and it started a ran fine until I shut it off after a minute.

The cranking speed of this starter is easily twice that of the old (107,000 miles) and cold starts are much quicker. About 5% of the time with the old starter the pinion would engage, but the starter wouldn't crank so hopefully this resolves that. Time will tell.

I love this forum. Thanks to all!

 

[HB Chris]

I think on the 441 the wire to the resistor is hot all of the time and not switched as on the -71 and perhaps 440. My resistor was cherry red too, since disconnected and then removed with the b35.

 

[sfdon]

You will fry your resister with that setup.

 

[bavbob]

Which setup?

This discussion is so poignant as I started up my 73 CS resto for the first time in months yesterday and AFTER I replaced the starter with Sr441X. It ran fine before starter replacement. My car will now run fine for 2-3 seconds then the tach and car die instantly. With this, the ballast resistor is hot as hell. The green wire to the coil was already partially melted when I got the car as well.

 

[HB Chris]

Disconnect the wire from starter to ballast resistor! The 441 has an always on hot lead, your original was switched power only when cranking to bypass the resistor, it isn’t needed and you will damage the coil.

You will still have your green switched power from ignition switch only, not the extra one from the coil.