The bitch is back

corsachili

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I didn't want to say anything until I knew for sure. I suspected the problem was not cured and my worst fears have now been realized. The stumbling/misfire/hesitation that has plagued my CSL's engine persists. Apparently neither the head nor the cam were the culprit. I just started the car up in the garage to play with the timing and within 5 minutes it started missing and doing its old tricks. I'm frustrated, but I can't really say I'm surprised. I had a feeling that this would be the case. The only components left unchecked are the distributor and the fuel delivery components at the rear of the car.

I'll start working my way through those after I spend a good night drinking myself in to a stupor over this.

Maker's Mark here I come...................
 

ScottAndrews

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TJ;

Get a gas analyzer, or have an O2 sensor bung welded into the exhaust systemsomewhere near the manifolds (e.g at the bottom of the down pipes).

Then use a Jaycar sensor or some other display to read the mixture. Heck, closed loop and a DVM would work. I'll bet dollars to donouts that it is either an ignition misfire (per one of the other posts), or a lean running issue.

S
 

corsachili

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What will that tell me? Will it tell me whether the problem is electric (ignition) or fuel delivery? I've just returned from another nasty job, this time removing all of the fuel delivery components in the gas tank, fuel pump and expansion cannister. Some dirt and grime was found and removed, but after reassembly the problem persists. Within minutes of starting it up, as soon as the cold start cycle is over, the car idles like it's got a drag racing cam in it, misfires, stumbles and shakes. When you open the throttle it doesn't even react unless you jab it open wide and quickly (it will clean up at that point) but as soon as you let it come back to idle the problem comes back.

This car is going to be the death of me.
 

ScottAndrews

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No offense, but maybe you should try a more systematic approach.

The stumbling is caused by SOMETHING, so the task is to determine what that is. One way (common) to do this, is to start changing and "fixing" parts until it goes away. As you are finding, that is an expensive and frustrating process.

The stumbling is caused by either a mixture issue or an ignition issue.
DO you have a copy of Probst? This is the treatise on Bosch EFI. If not, you can borrow mine (I am out of town right now, so I am writing a lot of this from memory...I'll double check it when I get home).

Mixture:
1) If you have a leak somewhere, it will presumably idle badly. Maybe not as badly as an L-Jet with a leak, but, depending on the location of the leak, it may or may not affect it. Try spraying startting fluid, or brake cleaner around every seam and every hose. If the RPM creeps up, then you have found your leak.
2) If the pressure sensors inthe D-Jet are bad, or the harness is bad, then they will register the wrong pressure and the ECU will provide the wrong injection pulse width.
3) If the transistors in the ECU are bad, or have flaky solder joints the injector pulses will be screwy, and this will result in an improper mixture.
4) If the throttle position switch is bad, or improperly set, then the mix at idle will be off. This usually causes a lurching/bucking behavior off throttle
5)If the system grounds are bad, loose, dirty, etc, the signals to the ECU will be screwy (it's a technical term)) and the car will run like crap at all speeds. Ob the later cars (so I assume on the D-Jet as well), Bosch used a direct grounding system. They basically run signal wires AND return wires. The returns typically go to some common points on the engine, and then go back (fewer in number) to the ECU. The engine needs to be properly grounded to the chassis as well. I am not sure where the grounds are on a CSL, but if you trace the injector wires and sensor wires you will find them.
6) The ECU istself may have a problem. Have you tried swapping It with a known good one? You can also check the injector pulses using an oscilloscope. The injectors require a very specific type of pulse to operate properly. I can't recall the type of injectors used on the D-Jet, but the injectors must match the ECU (low vs high impedance) or they will not work properly. It is possible that the injectors you are using are the wrong type.

A broadband O2 sensor will tell you what the mixture is doing by examining the amount of oxygen in the gas. You may know this already, but the mixture needs to operate AROUND 14.7:1 air to fuel. You can run richer than this and get higher power (around 12.5:1), or leaner and get better gas mileage, but only to a point. The combustion process basically consumes oxygen. At 14.7:1 theoretically ALL of the oxygen in the cyliner is consumed (this is called stoichiometric..it's a chemistry term). A normal O2 sensor is like a switch, It changes from o volts to 1 volt between about 14.6:1 and 14.8:1. They use this to keep the mixture at 14.7 by makingthe ECU sweep the mixture back and forth across the 14.7 point. WHe the sensor switches one way, the ECU goes the other, so it oscillates. This is required to run a catalytic converter properly (at the wrong mix the cat doesn't work). A broadband sensor has a less sharp curve, so you can measure the exact mixture much more accurately. This is a useful tool, but good ones are very expensive. I would use a regular O2 sensor, and get an LED display. this is a row of LEDs that light up depending on the output of the O2 sensor. Jaycar sells on in kit form for $25 (see link).



Hope this helps!

S

http://www.jaycarelectronics.com/pr...d2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=[/url]
 

ScottAndrews

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More...

There is a good writeup on the D-Jet at http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/djetfund.htm

In this they say that the second set of poionts at the bottom of the distributor is used to get injector timing. SO, you might want to check those as well.

The way this works is that the start of the injector pulse is timed by the points, and the duration of the pulse is determined by the ECU basedon air temp and manifold pressure.

There is also a special acceleration function that is giverned byt he throttle position sensor.

My L-Jet experience has taught me that getting all of these things right is critical to good performance. My L-jet barely ran until I fixed the leaks and tuned up the TPS. Now it runs amazingly well.

S
 

CookeD

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Speaking of exhaust gas analyzers... I made my own with a 4-wire O2 sensor and a digital multimeter; up the tailpipe it goes. You need a 4-wire because it heats itself, and without a heated sensor, a reading that far downstream won't work. IIRC, stoich on the multimeter is .45 volts.

If you happen to have a 4-wire sensor laying around, it's an easy tool to make. Obviously, this isn't the optimal analysis tool (especially with two carburetors), as you can only read it at idle and/or under throttle w/o load, but it does work, and I really just wanted to see how far away from stoich my lean best idle adjustments were. So, it was more of an experiment than anything, as I had a sensor laying around, some beer, and a few hours to kill.

My wife saw what I was doing, and really laughed at me this time.
 

ScottAndrews

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More...

There is a good writeup on the D-Jet at http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/djetfund.htm

In this they say that the second set of poionts at the bottom of the distributor is used to get injector timing. SO, you might want to check those as well.

The way this works is that the start of the injector pulse is timed by the points, and the duration of the pulse is determined by the ECU basedon air temp and manifold pressure.

There is also a special acceleration function that is giverned byt he throttle position sensor.

My L-Jet experience has taught me that getting all of these things right is critical to good performance. My L-jet barely ran until I fixed the leaks and tuned up the TPS. Now it runs amazingly well.

S
 

corsachili

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Thanks to everyone for their advice. Since this problem has been going on for almost a year now I will try to summarize everything that has been checked or replaced with a new part. None of the following actions has resulted in any changes in the way the car runs, the problem persists.

-ECU swapped with another unit
-new trigger points in distributor
-new ignition points in distributor
-new Throttle Position Sensor
-replaced coil
-MAP sensor checked against known good unit (no problems)
-fuel pressure (remains steady at 29PSI even when the symptom is occurring) Fuel pressure increased to 34 PSI based on Carl Nelson's advice
-all 6 fuel injectors cleaned, bench flowed
-gas tank pickup filter checked (no problems)
-fuel pump filter checked (was dirty, filter cleaned)
-new plug wires
-new plugs
 

corsachili

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Oh, a couple more things. I've swapped out the cold start valve, disconnected the cold start valve, replaced all of the sensors, rebuilt and tested the aux air valve, and have separate KILLER ground strap going from the engine block to good, clean chassis ground.
 

richn123

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TJ,

Have you ohmed out the wiring harness ar the brain connector for all the correct values?
 

ScottAndrews

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Aha!!!!!

You forgot to sacrifice the goat and swing the dead cat by the tail three times on a full moon!

No WONDER!!!!


Let me ponder this with Dr. Probst...

S
 
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