Upgrading 14” to 16” wheels - a meaningful functional difference

[JFENG]

I have two sets of 16” wheels for my E9 (Alpina & BBS RS), but am currently using scruffy 14x6” FPS with OLD medium performance tires (Yokohama Avid, at least 10 years old).

Question for those who moved up to staggered 16” setups: how would you rate the functional benefits relative to the stock 14” setup with modern performance tires?

Why am I asking? I just finished a drive with our local Alfa club at speeds from 0-70mph on twisty/hilly western MA back roads (dry, cool day). Some of the roads were freshly paved, but there was also some broken pavement, leaves, dirt and gravel on some corners. These Alfa drivers are a pretty aggressive bunch, many of whom also vintage race.

Unexpectedly, I found the performance of the old 14” tires more than adequate for high spirited yet adult driving on public roads. and I was following a new Alfa Quadrifoglio without issues except on a few straights.

I do think this setup would be rather inadequate for a track day when combined with a decent driver (my brake pad compound also NG for track sessions).

I have not driven a classic BMW on 16” wheels w high performance tires. If the main benefit is cosmetic, I will restore my 14” set and shod them with CN36’s. And leave the two 16” sets for the next caretaker.

John

PS: I have the full Carl Nelson spring/shock and F/R antisway-bar setup.

 

[HB Chris]

It’s hard to match the ride with 14” wheels/tires, if starting over I would keep 14s.

 

[dpdapper]

It’s hard to match the ride with 14” wheels/tires, if starting over I would keep 14s.

Chris, when you say “ride,” are you talking comfort or handling?

 

[HB Chris]

Ride an compliance primarily, I haven’t pushed the 14s on the CSL I drove.

 

[deQuincey]

I have two sets of 16” wheels for my E9 (Alpina & BBS RS), but am currently using scruffy 14x6” FPS with OLD medium performance tires (Yokohama Avid, at least 10 years old).

Question for those who moved up to staggered 16” setups: how would you rate the functional benefits relative to the stock 14” setup with modern performance tires?

Why am I asking? I just finished a drive with our local Alfa club at speeds from 0-70mph on twisty/hilly western MA back roads (dry, cool day). Some of the roads were freshly paved, but there was also some broken pavement, leaves, dirt and gravel on some corners. These Alfa drivers are a pretty aggressive bunch, many of whom also vintage race.

Unexpectedly, I found the performance of the old 14” tires more than adequate for high spirited yet adult driving on public roads. and I was following a new Alfa Quadrifoglio without issues except on a few straights.

I do think this setup would be rather inadequate for a track day when combined with a decent driver (my brake pad compound also NG for track sessions).

I have not driven a classic BMW on 16” wheels w high performance tires. If the main benefit is cosmetic, I will restore my 14” set and shod them with CN36’s. And leave the two 16” sets for the next caretaker.

John

PS: I have the full Carl Nelson spring/shock and F/R antisway-bar setup.

recently talked to Paul Cain
he mentioned a much better performance, (handling) for the 16”

 

[adawil2002]

BBS RS 16s are so much better than the stock 14s with the same setup you have, John. Time to replace your tires regardless of the wheels you use. 7 years is the general rule of thumb.

 

[craterface]

If you are going to the track, you are going to want the 16s. I have 16 inch Contis and they work well.

16 inch wheels definitely worsen ride quality, but grip, especially under braking, is better.

 

[JFENG]

Time to replace your tires regardless of the wheels you use. 7 years is the general rule of thumb.

I know 16’s were tires are much better but it seems superfluous for use on public roads.

Scott, Andrew, do you really have opportunity to use all that grip when you are not in a track? I’ll do a 60-0mph braking test next weekend and publish the data. You guys do the same and we will share.

I should mention that the brake fluid and oil on my E9 were last renewed before I bought the car ... more than 7 years ago! I was only driving it 0-75 miles a year so I didn’t see the point of wasting the money. The oil is still the color of grade-A Vermont Maple syrup, but the brake fluid looks more like Old Speckled Hen than Coors Lite.

I just ordered a couple liters of Castrol DOT4, a case of Valvoline 20w50 racing oil, and 2 bottles of RedLine Water Wetter (to renew coolant anti-corrosion properties).

John

 

[tferrer]

It's not necessarily about the ultimate traction at the limit (very few of us approach it on the street) but it IS about the overall driving experience (ie: confidence) of fresh modern rubber. Also consider the inevitable emergency stop or evasive maneuver situation where your tire's ultimate capabilities will be the difference between a simple hair raising experience and a very, very painful day. Think of it as cheap insurance...

16's will ALWAYS provide a higher level of performance, given the same/similar tire. You may suffer a small amount on the compliance side but it really depends on what you like and what you are used to. Do you go out and joust with the alfa boys quite often? Do you enjoy it and want to do more? Do you want to keep the E9 reputation of sublime handling and sportiness alive? ;-)

 

[rsporsche]

all the cars at my house, except the coupe ride on low profile tires. the 911 drives on 35 / 30 series tires (rears are 295/30-19) ... that is a firm, but very predictable ride. the macan rides on 255/50-19's ... yes the macan is only a slightly softer ride, primarily because the vehicle is heavier combined with the bigger sidewalls. the staggered 16" setup on the coupe uses 55 / 50 series tires. the 911 weighs about the same as the coupe, but has a more advanced suspension.

with that being said, i have been planning on using the 15" oz alpinas with 215/60-15s. the best tire choice is the cn-36, but 4 tires will cost 1720 bucks before installation. yes i can go with the goodrich radial TA for 630 bucks ... and that makes reasonable sense. 4 of the vredestein sport classics would cost 1081 bucks.

so that made me reconsider the 16" BBS RS or the 17" style 5 (like @vince - BBS RC090). the 17" wheels would use 50 / 45 series tires or 45 / 40 series ... if i went that route, 50 / 45 seems more reasonable and closer to the 16" experience. the tires for the 17" would cost 600 bucks for the conti sport contact and 500 bucks for the 16" ... but the 17" wheels are much less expensive than the 16" RS. John, you already have the RS or the Alpina, so you don't have that cost. as a comparison, the cn 36s for the 14" will cost you around 1200 bucks before install.

the ride difference to me is on the twisty / hilly roads out in the country ... especially during TSD rally. in a tour on those same roads with a coupe, a few M6, M5, e30 M3 and others following my 911 ... i can tell you that the M6's were a handful trying to keep up with me (not driving that hard, but i was NOT driving the speed limit). the e30 m3s / e28 m5 had no issues. all cars had good tires on them. i couldn't really judge the coupe, because it was behind one of the M6 ... it was on 14" wheels.

my take is that braking will have a lot to do with the condition of each braking system and then the specific tire ... not as much just on the wheel size. you also have to figure the weight of the wheel itself - larger wheels generally have more rotating mass further away from the axle. i think the lateral acceleration resistance of the 16" or 17" wheels will be a greater judge over the 14" due to the larger tire contact patch. so the question does become relative only if you drive your coupe hard on hilly / windy roads where adhesion becomes important. my .02 cents

 

[adawil2002]

I drive tracks for Parade Laps & Photo Shoots. I enjoy the spirited winding back roads & journey to the track. I'm more of a multi-stage rally/hill climb & destination guy. The 16s are perfect for my driving style & the car's handling is very predictable & confident.

 

[Gransin]

I had 16" for two summers and then switched over to 14" for this summer, I must say I really like how the coupe drives on the 14" compared to the 16" for regular and spirited street driving. I don't feel like the 14" tire is the limiting factor on the road, you'll pass the "this is not okay on a public road" limit before you reach the limit of the tyre, IMO.
I've had two close calls, one on 16" and one on 14", in both cases I locked up the brakes to avoid an accident (not my fault), and I can't say I noticed any dramatical difference in grip or otherwise.
For me, it's a cosmetic question, and I will probably switch back and forth when I feel like it. If you decide to run 14", I would try to find a 7x14" setup instead of the 6x14"

My 16" setup is:
7x16" with 205/55R16 Vredestein Ultrac Cento
8x16" with 225/50R16 Vredestein Ultrac Cento

The 14" setup is:
7x14" with some cheapo 215/65R14 Federal Super Steel 657

 

[craterface]

@bfeng, I was thinking you may also be taking the car on the track, and therefore 16s are better IMO.

I am with @tferrer regarding the emergency braking capabilities of the 16 inch rubber.

I will put in another plug for the repro Pirelli CN36 in 14 inch size. I have these on both an Alfa JrZ and one of my e9s. Great tire.

 

[NewSixCoupe]

I haven't been on TireRack in a while and am pleased to see the Pirelli tire now available for 14" coupe rims.

 

[rsporsche]

I haven't been on TireRack in a while and am pleased to see the Pirelli tire now available for 14" coupe rims.

yes, but it is on backorder - probably won't really be available until next year (according to tirerack)

 

[JFENG]

@bfeng, I was thinking you may also be taking the car on the track, and therefore 16s are better IMO.

I am with @tferrer regarding the emergency braking capabilities of the 16 inch rubber.

I will put in another plug for the repro Pirelli CN36 in 14 inch size. I have these on both an Alfa JrZ and one of my e9s. Great tire.

 

[JFENG]

I was thinking you may also be taking the car on the track, .

Nah, a street E9 is too portly for track work. My ‘57 Alfa is my track toy, and if I wanted a second It would be a 1960’s sports racer (Bobsey, Huffaker, Merlin, Lotus, Elva etc), or maybe a B-Sedan GTV or GT3 e10. With race car prices in a deep depression there are some great buys out there for vintage racing.

 

[Dick Steinkamp]

I should mention that the brake fluid and oil on my E9 were last renewed before I bought the car ... more than 7 years ago! I was only driving it 0-75 miles a year so I didn’t see the point of wasting the money. The oil is still the color of grade-A Vermont Maple syrup, but the brake fluid looks more like Old Speckled Hen than Coors Lite.

Here's a recent discussion on brake fluid changing interval.

The consensus seems to be to change it every year or two...at least bleed each bleeder to get the water and other contaminants out.

If your brake fluid is muddy but especially if you can see black specs in it, chances are your seals and/or hoses are starting to come apart. There is really nothing black that can get into the system other than rubber bits from seals and hoses. My rule of thumb is 10 years on hoses. If I don't know when they were changed when I buy a collector car, I change them. If your car doesn't go it's inconvenient. If it doesn't stop it's deadly.

I'd suggest once a year on oil changes if the car is driven infrequently. Lots of water gets into the oil through condensation, especially if the car is not always completely brought to temperature after being started (oil temp, not just water temp). The water combined with acids that accumulate in the oil over time is not good for engine bearings and other parts.

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[JFENG]

Lots of water gets into the oil through condensation

I think that is highly situational.
My barn never goes above 55% RH due to a dehumidifier I run continuously all. Year round. I might crank it down to 45% next summer. It’s insulated as well. I have never seen condensation inside my barn and my steel woodworking machines do not seem to rust. I make it a habit never to leave a door open when I’m in there working. I had a couple of antique machinists wrenches that I media blasted and threw on a shelf 3 years ago. Over 3 years they did develop a very faint bit of surface corrosion.

I totally agree with the point about really driving it. Since I use my old cars primarily for tours, a drive for me is typically >100 miles.

But, yes I should not go 7 years between oil changes. I will send a sample out for oil analysis because I’m curious what happened to the oil in the sump since 2013.

 

[tferrer]

yes, but it is on backorder - probably won't really be available until next year (according to tirerack)

Avons are fantastic. IMHO they are way better for spirited driving than the Pirelli (if that's your goal). Expensive but wonderful tires in the 14" rim size. These are getting to be expensive cars so why cheap out with less than great tires. They make the experience so much more fun in spirited driving. And you don't have to worry so much about getting dropped by an early 911 ;-)

UPDATE: After looking at the tire choices, they are limited on 14s. If you are going with 14x6, then you are good. This is a tire I have experience with on early 911s. They are great.. Again, not cheap but what is these days.

Avon Tyres - On Road. On Track. On Avons.

Avon has been making high quality tyres since 1904, tyres that fit all sorts of cars, motorbikes, vans and trailers. On two wheels as well as four.

www.avonmotorsport.com