Werks Shop '74 CS in Key West
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then you get to spend 5 grand putting a 5 speed in and another $750 for a Petri
digixjairo
Well-Known Member
I almost had a heart attack when I saw the price.
Philippe db
Well-Known Member
Like with all collectibles, asking is one thing , getting it the other.
Added to the registry.
While this does seem to be priced at the high end I’m a little surprised at the reactions here. If you were to commission either Carl Nelson, Coupe King or the WerkShop to produce a complete rotisserie nut and bolt restoration from the ground up and have it finished in the kind of high quality detail this car looks to have been finished in I highly doubt you’re going to get out of the door for less than 100K probably closer to 120k and it’s going to take 1 to 2 years. We’re not talking about finding a great starter and fixing minor rust issues, we’re talking about a total complete as close to perfect restoration as you can get by one of the premier shops in the country, possible the world.
If you look at the pictures of the CSI restoration the Werkshop built for Mike Valentine (I lust over it every month) I think you can get a really good feel for the detail. The guys I’ve met up here who’ve managed to get close to this by doing a lot of the work themselves and when adding a fair wage for labor would probably admit they’ve spent close to 100K, and haven’t achieved this level of quality.
If this was rebuilt with originality in mind and let’s say for arguments sake this is an all numbers matching car etc. then it makes sense from a value standpoint that they kept the auto and maybe just upgraded carbs but I think you could argue that’s actually a smart move when trying to retain value and not modify too much.
Again, not trying to start a war here, but as we continue to see, there are so few cars out there that have been restored to this standard and for someone who wants the best original restoration that’s come to market in the past couple of years and doesn’t want to wait 2 years they might just get what they’re asking.
If they do I really think that actually bodes well for the rest of us, and if money were not object I’d love to own this car. I also believe in the not to distant future the price wont seem too out of the ordinary for this level of quality.
If you look at the pictures of the CSI restoration the Werkshop built for Mike Valentine (I lust over it every month) I think you can get a really good feel for the detail. The guys I’ve met up here who’ve managed to get close to this by doing a lot of the work themselves and when adding a fair wage for labor would probably admit they’ve spent close to 100K, and haven’t achieved this level of quality.
If this was rebuilt with originality in mind and let’s say for arguments sake this is an all numbers matching car etc. then it makes sense from a value standpoint that they kept the auto and maybe just upgraded carbs but I think you could argue that’s actually a smart move when trying to retain value and not modify too much.
Again, not trying to start a war here, but as we continue to see, there are so few cars out there that have been restored to this standard and for someone who wants the best original restoration that’s come to market in the past couple of years and doesn’t want to wait 2 years they might just get what they’re asking.
If they do I really think that actually bodes well for the rest of us, and if money were not object I’d love to own this car. I also believe in the not to distant future the price wont seem too out of the ordinary for this level of quality.
Philippe db
Well-Known Member
Hi Bavarian,
IMO you can put 100K in any restoration but that doesn't make the end result worth 100K.
That being said you only need to find 1 guy with to much money and this car indeed will sell. And if it does the next one will be on offer for 150K.
IMO you can put 100K in any restoration but that doesn't make the end result worth 100K.
That being said you only need to find 1 guy with to much money and this car indeed will sell. And if it does the next one will be on offer for 150K.
MyFemurHurts
Well-Known Member
And for those of us that already own Coupes, I want to see him get the money. A rising tide raises all ships.
Hi Philippe,
I think you’re right but that actually proves my point.
The price of this car is to large part based on who did the restoration.
If you choose a company that can restore your coupe to the high standards the Werkshop is typically known for then the end result is more likely to be a coupe that’s worth around 100K, there’s a certain cache’ there.
If you find a local restorer who’s never worked on these cars before and subs out the engine and the interior to others who’ve also not had a lot of experience with coupes and pay them 100k to do it the end result will probably be a car that’s worth far less than what you paid in which case you’d be right.
But then worth is a relative term. Are the Porches that are currently selling for astronomical prices “worth” what people are paying? I suppose to the buyers the answer would be yes, to a lot of other people not so much.
This is not all smoke and mirrors or just a matter of opinion. If you want a close to perfect paint job on a straight rust free body from a great paint shop there’s a price. If you want do re-do the entire interior as close to OEM as possible there’s a price and so on. Even if you were capable of doing all of this yourself to the same high standards of say the Werkshop, you’d have to add up those hours and put a reasonable price on the cost of your labor if you want to make a fair comparison. To a potential buyer though your work might not come with the same premium as a known entity.
If you look at the detail of the Mike Valentine car I just don’t know how you’d get there without dropping well over 100k. This of course comes with the understanding that this is a business and they’re obviously making a profit too.
If you want a close to perfect car, restored by one of the most respected shops in the business (I can’t tell from the pictures if this is one, but I’m assuming based on who did the work it’s probably a very high standard) and you’re unable to do the work yourself then this is what’s it’s going to cost.
Is the end result worth it? To me it would be, to you maybe not, but ultimately the market will dictate that.
I think you’re right but that actually proves my point.
The price of this car is to large part based on who did the restoration.
If you choose a company that can restore your coupe to the high standards the Werkshop is typically known for then the end result is more likely to be a coupe that’s worth around 100K, there’s a certain cache’ there.
If you find a local restorer who’s never worked on these cars before and subs out the engine and the interior to others who’ve also not had a lot of experience with coupes and pay them 100k to do it the end result will probably be a car that’s worth far less than what you paid in which case you’d be right.
But then worth is a relative term. Are the Porches that are currently selling for astronomical prices “worth” what people are paying? I suppose to the buyers the answer would be yes, to a lot of other people not so much.
This is not all smoke and mirrors or just a matter of opinion. If you want a close to perfect paint job on a straight rust free body from a great paint shop there’s a price. If you want do re-do the entire interior as close to OEM as possible there’s a price and so on. Even if you were capable of doing all of this yourself to the same high standards of say the Werkshop, you’d have to add up those hours and put a reasonable price on the cost of your labor if you want to make a fair comparison. To a potential buyer though your work might not come with the same premium as a known entity.
If you look at the detail of the Mike Valentine car I just don’t know how you’d get there without dropping well over 100k. This of course comes with the understanding that this is a business and they’re obviously making a profit too.
If you want a close to perfect car, restored by one of the most respected shops in the business (I can’t tell from the pictures if this is one, but I’m assuming based on who did the work it’s probably a very high standard) and you’re unable to do the work yourself then this is what’s it’s going to cost.
Is the end result worth it? To me it would be, to you maybe not, but ultimately the market will dictate that.
People have put $300k in restorations in cars worth barely 1/10th.
Again, this car is nice, maybe $80k nice for the right person, but it will take >year to find that person if at all.
The strong dollar doesn't help any either as many buyers are from Europe for these kind of cars.
Again, this car is nice, maybe $80k nice for the right person, but it will take >year to find that person if at all.
The strong dollar doesn't help any either as many buyers are from Europe for these kind of cars.
Strange to go through that extensive of a restoration to keep stock (other than bumper upgrade) and put some aftermarket K&N filters on the carbs. Assuming they are Weber's and not original Zenith's, they make an adaptor for the air box. Is it me or does that seem strange? Kind of knit picky I guess but after doing everything else right, why go that route? Oil filler cap looks aftermarket too or maybe correct for 74' not 100% sure. I don't know? I just saw a really nice 2002 turbo up for sale for $145K, we can all remember not too long ago, like months, not years, that nice turbos were going for $55-$60K. Oh, but Janet says inflation is under 2%....not in the coupe/turbo world! LOL.
A couple of years ago I seriously considered buying the black coupe that Canepa was selling that had 40/50k of work done by Carl Nelson. I think Canepa had it priced at 75K and it just seemed really high at the time. It sold and then resold a couple of years later at auction for 110K.
Why did someone pay so much? probably money wasn't an issue and they were looking for a great car with no stories, a documented restoration and almost nothing to fix or repair, just having it done is worth something to people who can fix it themselves.
If that black Canepa coupe came on the market today for 75k they'd be a punch up over who would get it first. Two years ago the feeling on this board was it was worth around 60k.
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13633&highlight=canepa
This Fjord coupe might be overpriced but without knowing the full extent of the work performed it's a tough guess. For me, if I were ever to come across a coupe that had been fully restored by the Werkshop, or Carl Nelson for that matter I'd be comfortable paying a premium if I had the cash, just for knowing what no longer learked beneath.
Why did someone pay so much? probably money wasn't an issue and they were looking for a great car with no stories, a documented restoration and almost nothing to fix or repair, just having it done is worth something to people who can fix it themselves.
If that black Canepa coupe came on the market today for 75k they'd be a punch up over who would get it first. Two years ago the feeling on this board was it was worth around 60k.
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13633&highlight=canepa
This Fjord coupe might be overpriced but without knowing the full extent of the work performed it's a tough guess. For me, if I were ever to come across a coupe that had been fully restored by the Werkshop, or Carl Nelson for that matter I'd be comfortable paying a premium if I had the cash, just for knowing what no longer learked beneath.
iconoclast6
Well-Known Member
Bavarian,
All good points, and well demonstrated with our reputable restoration shops, about the cost of restoration. Keep in mind though that classic cars, e9's in particular, may not provide a 1 to 1 yield of selling price to restoration costs.
The beauty of the e9 is unquestioned, but for several reasons, the classic car market has only recently begun to value our cars. Most e9 sales are not reflected in publications, as they happen privately.
The best scenario for resale, likely comes from a market of folks who are 1) already pre-disposed to wanting an e9, 2) those who understand the costs of restoration and 3) those who value the process of your particular restoration and car history.
It behooves all buyers, to perform pre-sale due diligence.
Yet, also know that this forum has been notorious, paradoxically so, for shooting down the 'asked for" prices of e9's that come to market. In some ways, this also contributes to the unrealistic gap between restoration prices and "perceived appropriate" asking prices.
Good luck with your sale. For the right buyer, it could be worth every penny....
All good points, and well demonstrated with our reputable restoration shops, about the cost of restoration. Keep in mind though that classic cars, e9's in particular, may not provide a 1 to 1 yield of selling price to restoration costs.
The beauty of the e9 is unquestioned, but for several reasons, the classic car market has only recently begun to value our cars. Most e9 sales are not reflected in publications, as they happen privately.
The best scenario for resale, likely comes from a market of folks who are 1) already pre-disposed to wanting an e9, 2) those who understand the costs of restoration and 3) those who value the process of your particular restoration and car history.
It behooves all buyers, to perform pre-sale due diligence.
Yet, also know that this forum has been notorious, paradoxically so, for shooting down the 'asked for" prices of e9's that come to market. In some ways, this also contributes to the unrealistic gap between restoration prices and "perceived appropriate" asking prices.
Good luck with your sale. For the right buyer, it could be worth every penny....
scottd
Well-Known Member
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Pretty much every forum has plenty of people who nitpick all the cars for sale. Funny thing is that many sellers know this, and don't sell on forums. This looks like a very nice car, and I can't say I recall seeing one this well done in quite some time.
I, for one, hope the seller gets the asking price.
Scott
I, for one, hope the seller gets the asking price.
Scott
RogerB
Well-Known Member
Ditto!!!
Philippe db
Well-Known Member
Very true and certainly with our type of cars 80% of the costs will be labour and 20% parts.
Being in the position of not being able to work on my cars myself I very well know how easy it is to spend a few thousand $ for any type of work that needs to be done.
However these labour cost, for a large part, remain invisible to a potential buyer. In a certain prize category lets say 50K+ the buyer will expect that e.g. your engine runs smoothly and couldn't care less if you managed that yourself for $20 or paid somebody 20K to overhaul your engine.
And that is the point I wanted to make its not because tomorrow you invest 5, 10 or 20K in your car that it's value will rise accordingly.
Auto tragic
I almost bought a Werk Shop restored 2002 about 4 years ago. The car was spectacular. The price was high, too. Wish I had bought it.
But, it was not a tii, and therefore I hesitated. As an investment, it was not the right car. Kind of like this one. An automatic is not a 100 grand car. And a professional conversion is not cheap.
Also, this car is located at the end of the earth, so tough to go inspect.
Also, of note, the Werk Shop will put either a "Complete Restoration" or "Partial Restoration" plaque on the car. That Complete plaque is probably worth a lot, if the 2002 I saw is any guide.
I almost bought a Werk Shop restored 2002 about 4 years ago. The car was spectacular. The price was high, too. Wish I had bought it.
But, it was not a tii, and therefore I hesitated. As an investment, it was not the right car. Kind of like this one. An automatic is not a 100 grand car. And a professional conversion is not cheap.
Also, this car is located at the end of the earth, so tough to go inspect.
Also, of note, the Werk Shop will put either a "Complete Restoration" or "Partial Restoration" plaque on the car. That Complete plaque is probably worth a lot, if the 2002 I saw is any guide.
Dirk
Well-Known Member
Not everyone cares for having manual transmission. Actually this enthusiast paid lots of money for his restoration and have it converted to automatic transmission: http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/25/bmw-classic-center-completes-3-0-csi-restoration-for-lucky-owner/
It all depends what you want and how much you are willing to pay for it.