What determines a matching numbers car?

[Michael Kaye]

hi all.

Hope this isn’t a stupid question....

1 What exactly determines whether a coupe is a matching numbers car.

In the Porsche 356 world, it was matching chassis (multiple stamps on body), engine and transmission numbers.

Is it the same for the E9 coupe?

2. how does one check whether a car does have matching numbers/original engine etc. Again in the Porsche world I was able to order a “Kardex” from Porsche factory directly with the original details.

Do BMW provide a similar service?

Thanks in advance from an E9 novice.

Michael.

 

[Wes]

I just know I'm going to get shot up here but here is my understanding:

Number on Vin plate;
Number on top of firewall (stamped in).
Number on engine block on LH side near bell housing;

These should all match.
You could probably take it further to include that the build dates on the head and block match the build details from BMW.

@Markos @Keshav @everybodyelse?
That do we think?

 

[Marco 54]

That sounds right to me.

Also Heritage Certificates can be obtained from - [email protected]
It will be necessary to send photos of the car and the numbers on the VIN plate, the firewall and the engine block.

Good luck

 

[Wes]

That sounds right to me.

Also Heritage Certificates can be obtained from - [email protected]
It will be necessary to send photos of the car and the numbers on the VIN plate, the firewall and the engine block.

Good luck

I actually spoke to these guys last week about something else. Told me that in the case of CSL's they would still verify even if not matching numbers provided the other numbers and CSL parts were present. Thought it was an interesting comment.

 

[Philippe db]

Hi Michael,

No difference between the Porsche and BMW World, as long as the numbers on your body, engine and gearbox match with the "original" paperwork of your car or a factory certificate you have a matching numbers car.

 

[Keshav]

I have a hard time believing that they won’t issue a certificate without matching engine number.

 

[Wes]

I have a hard time believing that they won’t issue a certificate without matching engine number.

You mean they 'wont' or they 'will' in respect of non-matching numbers?

 

[Keshav]

That they will issue a certificate without a matching engine number........

 

[Wes]

Maybe I got the work experience kid but that's what they said.
Suspect any certificate would need to state non-matching numbers.
Does the certificate actually add value to the car anyway - I'm hi-jacking the thread now
I suspect it marginally does if car has no providence.

 

[Marco 54]

I attach a reply I received recently. My engine is currently being checked and refurbished, as necessary, at a an engine specialist over 200 miles (300km) away.
I was therefore unable to send a photo of the engine number but I did send photos of the car, the VIN plate and the stamped number on the firewall.
I also sent a copy of the UK Registration Document showing that I have owned the car since 1982.

I was told -

"Thank you for your reply.
I’m afraid I have to wait for a picture of the engine number too. We have quite strict rules regarding these rare and expensive cars.
There are just too many faked ones on the road and there’s a lot of money involved.
Many thanks for your understanding.

Yours sincerely,

Andreas Harz"

I replied -

Dear Andreas

I will do what I can to obtain a photo of the engine number from the people who are re- building my engine (they are situated 300km away).
I can tell you that the engine number matches the chassis number, as shown on the registration document.

I have owned the car for 36 years and I am in no doubt that the car is a genuine CSL.

However what would you say if the engine did not have a matching number?
Surely you cannot say that cars with replacement M30 engines are not genuine?

I will be in touch when I have the photographic evidence you require.

Thank you.

I have had no response, but I will report again when I have the details they require.

 

[Keshav]

Does the certificate actually add value to the car anyway - I'm hi-jacking the thread now
I suspect it marginally does if car has no providence.

It’s become a must off late. Part of the process but it’s not like BMW inspects the car personally either to verify what you actually have. Possibly adds to the comfort zone for a buyer. Just my 2cents worth. This is surely a debatable issue

 

[Keshav]

I attach a reply I received recently. My engine is currently being checked and refurbished, as necessary, at a an engine specialist over 200 miles (300km) away.
I was therefore unable to send a photo of the engine number but I did send photos of the car, the VIN plate and the stamped number on the firewall.
I also sent a copy of the UK Registration Document showing that I have owned the car since 1982.

I was told -

"Thank you for your reply.
I’m afraid I have to wait for a picture of the engine number too. We have quite strict rules regarding these rare and expensive cars.
There are just too many faked ones on the road and there’s a lot of money involved.
Many thanks for your understanding.

Yours sincerely,

Andreas Harz"

I replied -

Dear Andreas

I will do what I can to obtain a photo of the engine number from the people who are re- building my engine (they are situated 300km away).
I can tell you that the engine number matches the chassis number, as shown on the registration document.

I have owned the car for 36 years and I am in no doubt that the car is a genuine CSL.

However what would you say if the engine did not have a matching number?
Surely you cannot say that cars with replacement M30 engines are not genuine?

I will be in touch when I have the photographic evidence you require.

Thank you.

I have had no response, but I will report again when I have the details they require.

Interesting...... what happens if the engine doesn’t have the correct VIN? Whew, I guess I got my certificate before the rules got this strict.

 

[Wes]

It’s become a must off late. Part of the process but it’s not like BMW inspects the car personally either to verify what you actually have. Possibly adds to the comfort zone for a buyer. Just my 2cents worth. This is surely a debatable issue

I agree mate.
Let me give a hypothetical example.

UK City Pack with a fairly good ownership history and known in UK circles - say period references in 'CSL News.'
Previous owner blows a motor in the early 1980s racing other CSL's in the UK.
Replaces with a motor from another UK City Pack CSL.
Fast forward to today and most of the history is known/corroborated.
I'm of the view this car has a really good pedigree and everything else being equal should be worth more than an identical matching numbers CSL with no history but a BMW certificate.
Take it even further and I'd actually be suspicious of a car with little or no history but a shiny new BMW certificate.
I'm certain a few CSL's that have died have had their organs harvested and re-birthed and sold for top dollar.
As Keshav stated BMW actually don't do ant due diligence to discover that the car receiving the certificate is actually the car that left the factory.
Thoughts?

 

[Marco 54]

I agree mate.
Let me give a hypothetical example.

UK City Pack with a fairly good ownership history and known in UK circles - say period references in 'CSL News.'
Previous owner blows a motor in the early 1980s racing other CSL's in the UK.
Replaces with a motor from another UK City Pack CSL.
Fast forward to today and most of the history is known/corroborated.
I'm of the view this car has a really good pedigree and everything else being equal should be worth more than an identical matching numbers CSL with no history but a BMW certificate.
Take it even further and I'd actually be suspicious of a car with little or no history but a shiny new BMW certificate.
I'm certain a few CSL's that have died have had their organs harvested and re-birthed and sold for top dollar.
As Keshav stated BMW actually don't do ant due diligence to discover that the car receiving the certificate is actually the car that left the factory.
Thoughts?

Hi Wes

Apologies for the duplication.

I read an interesting take on the subject of matching numbers.
In the March 2017 UK BMW Car Club newsletter (copy attached), John Castle ( a renowned and widely respected CSL expert) said,

"BMW reconditioned engines were supplied with the engine number location blank. Dealers were supposed to re-number the engine with the car VIN number when the engine was changed, but most failed to do so as they did not have the number punches. If you have a blank number location, just use the VIN number because it will be a BMW reconditioned engine. If, however there are angle grinder marks on the location then, tongue in cheek, use the VIN number as the engine may well not have come from an E9 but a scrap yard or stolen car !"

 

[Keshav]

It’s all a desperate attempt to protect the Csl owners from the shysters. We’ve seen a few cases of false VINs, VINs for sale and all kinds of ‘doctoring’ going on.
And yes Wes and Mark (who’s owned his Csl since the 80’s), there is no certificate that can substitute real provenance like long time ownership.
As you point out Wes, engines blow up and are replaced...... does that make a car a fake? This also invites restamping the block number.

 

[Michael Kaye]

Hi all, Thanks for the messages...very helpful.

Regards, Michael

 

[Drew20]

one difference between Porkers and BMWs is BMW does not stamp the transmission with the chassis number, so matching numbers can't apply to original transmissions in the BMW world

 

[Keshav]

BMW reconditioned engines were supplied with the engine number location blank. Dealers were supposed to re-number the engine with the car VIN number when the engine was changed, but most failed to do so as they did not have the number punches. If you have a blank number location, just use the VIN number because it will be a BMW reconditioned engine. If, however there are angle grinder marks on the location then, tongue in cheek, use the VIN number as the engine may well not have come from an E9 but a scrap yard or stolen car

Brilliant. I mentioned this a few months ago too. This is an ongoing pratice since decades, legally and otherwise too.
Hand on heart, how many have actually confirmed what block number they have?
Honestly, I’ve NEVER seen a car for sale in which they are showing both the VIN and block# too. They say, matching numbers...... and we take that for granted?
I’d want to ideally buy from a guy like Mark who’s owned the car since early 80’s, matching number block or not. With or without bmw certificate.

 

[Wes]

It’s all a desperate attempt to protect the Csl owners from the shysters. We’ve seen a few cases of false VINs, VINs for sale and all kinds of ‘doctoring’ going on.
And yes Wes and Mark (who’s owned his Csl since the 80’s), there is no certificate that can substitute real provenance like long time ownership.
As you point out Wes, engines blow up and are replaced...... does that make a car a fake? This also invites restamping the block number.

Think you've hit the nail on the head.
I'd always prefer a car with a known history over a car that doesn't have one but but comes with a shiny certificate.
Had some similar experience here with a rare coin. (1930 penny).
The Australian Mint has a rough idea as to the mintage but isn't really sure but it's about 500.
They have already issued authentication certificates for more than 500.
I know a collector that had one found in general circulation in the early 1960s - before they had a real value - and providence is rock solid.
Mint wont authenticate on grounds they have already done so for 500+ coins but admit they cannot find fault with it.
Still sold for same value as coin with a certificate.

 

[Keshav]

Hi all, Thanks for the messages...very helpful.

Regards, Michael

As opposed to MB and Porsche, BMW didn’t stamp other pertinent body parts like hood, trunk (hardtop like in my Pagode), not even on the Csl’s. Just one on the firewall to confirm the body’s identity.