CSL Redo for Vintage Racing

[lafngrvy]

The tub is back from the media blaster and all its warts and bruises are on display. It is actually not in too bad of shape. The worst area is the rear apron and rear valance around the tail light holes. The question now comes- do we spend time at the body shop correcting these issues? Or do we just cut and weld better sheet metal?

Does anyone know if there is any rear sheet metal around? If so, what the cost would be?

The engine arrived at Korman last week. They have begun tearing it down and inspecting it. Once that is complete we will develop a build plan and cost projection. I'll post some pictures of it when I get them from Ray.

 

[lafngrvy]

I've been able to locate rear sheet metal to replace the damaged steel on my car. I also got some information from Korman on what they are finding during the tear-down of my engine. No wonder it ran so poorly during the last race :

"Hey Steve;

A couple of pics attached.

First is of the shrapnel from the valve train. It appears that the rocker arms weren't relieved enough to clear the retainers, so they were rubbing. This caused the retainer to overheat and the valves and keepers to start pulling through. Probably also helped speed the demise of the rockers, which were inverted, had scattered pieces everywhere, and had bent the rocker shafts. Jimmy had to cut the rocker shafts into pieces to get the head apart (which at this point looks like it survived). Valves, rockers, springs, retainers, all trashed. The cam was a regrind, probably in the range of 284 degrees (nice street grind). The valve spring pressures were wrong, too weak closed, too high open. Compression ratio was around 9.6:1 (we are going to look for something around 12:1 going forward). So it was basically configured to be a nice street engine (or was conceived as one).

The second pic is of frankenpan. Interesting way to lower the oil pump pickup (the tube welded on the bottom). Jimmy says it probably wasn't an issue. Can't figure out the reason for the screen though, the pan on the car came with some really nice scrapers, which were cut out and replaced with the mesh which has dubious merits."

 

[bdigel]

http://www.skidmarkracing.net/products.html

Check out Perry's Billet rockers, Ive been running a set in my sohc 3.6 with a 308 cam for 6 to 7 years with out any problems, best money I ever spent on a big six!

Also If you want a crank scrapper to get rid of the mesh try this Ive been runnning one of these for years as well
http://www.crank-scrapers.com/bmw.html

Sorrry for the bad luck, Never seen someone have to cut the shafts to get them out of the head! What size engine are you running??keep the pictures coming, cant wait to get started on mine

 

[lafngrvy]

Got these shots today of the rear valance of my car.

As you can see there are some rust issues and some damaged sheet metal. We are still debating between repairing what we have and finding rear sheet metal and replacing.

Any thoughts or observations from the group?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[lafngrvy]

http://www.skidmarkracing.net/products.html

Check out Perry's Billet rockers, Ive been running a set in my sohc 3.6 with a 308 cam for 6 to 7 years with out any problems, best money I ever spent on a big six!

Also If you want a crank scrapper to get rid of the mesh try this Ive been runnning one of these for years as well
http://www.crank-scrapers.com/bmw.html

Sorrry for the bad luck, Never seen someone have to cut the shafts to get them out of the head! What size engine are you running??keep the pictures coming, cant wait to get started on mine

Thanks for the leads. I'm not sure if Korman uses Perry's rockers or have their own billet style.

We are planning on dry sumping the engine, so I think they will be using a different style of scraper. But what do i know?

We are planning on a 3.5 motor with triple 50 MM Webers, and a much more aggressive cam then they found in the motor. Should make for a strong runner, and quite reliable.

Steve

 

[Bill Riblett]

Got these shots today of the rear valance of my car.

As you can see there are some rust issues and some damaged sheet metal. We are still debating between repairing what we have and finding rear sheet metal and replacing.

Any thoughts or observations from the group?

Thanks,
Steve


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I spent many hours straightening the rear panel on one of my cars and really wish now that I had just replaced it. Yours is pretty bad too. If it were mine, I would definitely get a new rear panel.

The ends of the rear quarters (pictures 2 and 3) look like small local repairs would not be difficult.

 

[chicane]

Got these shots today of the rear valance of my car.

As you can see there are some rust issues and some damaged sheet metal. We are still debating between repairing what we have and finding rear sheet metal and replacing.

Any thoughts or observations from the group?

Thanks,
Steve


View attachment 626

View attachment 627

View attachment 628

Thanks for all of the pics of the car, it looks great. From the pics in this post the metal of the rear valance looks very stressed. I would presume that there was some rear end damage at some point in your cars life. I would replace this panel and I would also get under the car and double check for any structural or frame damage as well.

 

[pamp]

Rear ender

Thanks for all of the pics of the car, it looks great. From the pics in this post the metal of the rear valance looks very stressed. I would presume that there was some rear end damage at some point in your cars life. I would replace this panel and I would also get under the car and double check for any structural or frame damage as well.

I second the motion

 

[lafngrvy]

Thank You, Chicane and Pamp.

The car went over to the body shop today to be placed on a frame jig to be straightened back to factory specs. They will also be conducting a thorough inspection of the complete tub before we make any decisions about just repairing what is there vs. replacing.

My biggest concern is the drooping of the right rear corner evident in the first photo.

I don't know if the car has been hit, or just tweaked from racing. The roll cage that we cut out of it was not well tied into the main structure, so it could have just been distorted from years of racing. I didn't see any other evidence of damage from an accident.

There were some bends and wows in the floors which looked like the result of some agricultural racing, but nothing that would explain the drooping at the rear.

 

[chicane]

Thank You, Chicane and Pamp.

The car went over to the body shop today to be placed on a frame jig to be straightened back to factory specs. They will also be conducting a thorough inspection of the complete tub before we make any decisions about just repairing what is there vs. replacing.

My biggest concern is the drooping of the right rear corner evident in the first photo.

I don't know if the car has been hit, or just tweaked from racing. The roll cage that we cut out of it was not well tied into the main structure, so it could have just been distorted from years of racing. I didn't see any other evidence of damage from an accident.

There were some bends and wows in the floors which looked like the result of some agricultural racing, but nothing that would explain the drooping at the rear.

That rear valance looks hammered and dollied to me and and I too see some warpage. That along with the corrosion in that particular area leads me to the conclusion that rear end damage has occurred at some point (not particularly unusual for a race car). Either way that panel is going to have to be replaced and depending on how far back the damage goes you may end up replacing the entire rear clip. Is this an original FIA car or a retro-racer? If the latter, and depending on what you find, it might be better (and cheaper) to start with a fresh shell.

 

[threewebers]

rear end damage

Is this going to be a garage queen or racer? if your building a monster motor with korman you are probably going to get hit in the rear again because you'll be in front of the pack and all those Mustangs & Camaros won't stop as fast !

 

[chicane]

Is this going to be a garage queen or racer? if your building a monster motor with korman you are probably going to get hit in the rear again because you'll be in front of the pack and all those Mustangs & Camaros won't stop as fast !

This is not merely a cosmetic concern. As you can see from the photos there are rust holes and indications of previous repair leading to the conclusion that the metal is weakened. There could also be other damage (not seen) that could have further weakened metal of even frame damage. Weakened metal and/or frame damage could be a safety issue on the track.

 

[threewebers]

rusty coupe

Oh, I'm sorry I did not realize you were a racecar engineer/fabricator! I also did not realize there was a "frame" in the rear section of the car?I must have missed that part when tied the subframe ,coilovers and rear-diff into the cage where it normally bolts into the unibody of the car. Those wide sticky tires will stress and weaken any of the sheetmetal on the stock,-flexprone coupe body rust or not.

 

[lafngrvy]

Thank you all for your observations and helpful advice.

@Threewebers: It has been and will be a vintage racer. Yes we are building a monster motor at Korman. Ray has really taken an interest in the car and is excited about the motor build. And yes I do have some concerns about the lack of stopping power of some of my competitors.

At present the tub is at the body shop on the frame jig getting straightened back to factory specs. Once that is complete we will evaluate the tub for any repairs/replacement of sheet metal.

We have found all the parts necessary to put in an E24 rear sub-frame, diff, trailing arms, axels, etc. These are at Tim's shop for clean-up and fab. Once the tub is back we will be fitting the rear sub-frame and bits. We will be using stock E28 brakes in the rear. This setup will allow a broader choice of rear ratios.

We have also found a close ratio M3 gearbox which will go in the car.

Once the rear sub-frame and suspension have been fit we will tie in the roll cage mounting points to the sub-frame mounting points. This should considerably stiffen the tub.

Will post more photos as things come back to the shop and start going together.

 

[shanon]

sounds like a 'Franken-Coupe'...;-)

E24 rear-end and bits....hhhmmm period?! (who cares) ...sounds like Cuffy's car.

Have fun, that's what it's about (and as for period correct, well wait 'til ya see my bro's new ride later this spring...)

See ya out there hopefully...T-Hill this summer perhaps?

-shanon

 

[chicane]

sounds like a 'Franken-Coupe'...;-)

E24 rear-end and bits....hhhmmm period?! (who cares) ...sounds like Cuffy's car.

Have fun, that's what it's about (and as for period correct, well wait 'til ya see my bro's new ride later this spring...)

See ya out there hopefully...T-Hill this summer perhaps?

-shanon

Ummm, it's a race car....

 

[bdigel]

I put an e 28 subframe in my e 12 ,years ago for the same reason, you should get intouch with me I'll be glad to give you some pionter's.
also you should put e34 vented rears on instaed , they will bolt right up,
Ive got diff's galore that will fit that set up, right now Im running a 4.27!
Im also working on putting sperical bearings in my trailing arms
and all this is going in to my coupe if I ever get started??
wait till you see what power plant and front suspension I got planned !! haha

keep us informed I love race car builds!!

 

[lafngrvy]

sounds like a 'Franken-Coupe'...;-)

E24 rear-end and bits....hhhmmm period?! (who cares) ...sounds like Cuffy's car.

Have fun, that's what it's about (and as for period correct, well wait 'til ya see my bro's new ride later this spring...)

See ya out there hopefully...T-Hill this summer perhaps?

-shanon

Shanon,

I know- period correct. But have you looked under the hood of some of the 'vintage' Mustangs and Cameros running here on the west coast?

Our target is the HMSA race at Laguna on June 22-23. If I make the T-Hill race it will probably be in my 1800 TiSA.

 

[lafngrvy]

Engine Build

I have been corresponding with Allen @ Korman regarding the build plan for my 3.5 ltr. engine. Here is what we have come up with:

1] 12.5:1 compression with custom race pistons and longer race rods to move the pin up in the pistons and reduce skirt weight (8500-9000 rpm will be redline- imagine the song this big six will sing!)
2] All new valves, re-port and re-polish intake and exhaust ports.
3] Schrick 308 cam. Billet rockers. Schrick valve springs and titanium retainers.
4] Dry sump oiling system with crank driven pump and custom oil scraper, remote filter, and oil tank in trunk per factory cars.
5] 50 DCOE Weber carbs with soft mount kits.
6] Re-use current electronic ignition and distributor. Re-curve as necessary.
7] Aluminium flywheel and stacked race clutch.

Fortunately the head, block and crank were all salvageable, and were, in fact, the correct motorsports parts. This will save some $$$.

I will post pictures as the motor goes back together. For now we're cleaning the block and head, ordering and machining parts as needed.

 

[lafngrvy]

To Tub or Not To Tub

Meeting between body shop, roll cage builder, and us did not go as planned. :cry:

The amount of work (and $$$$) necessary to patch, straighten, restore, and strengthen my existing tub may preclude doing so, but rather necessitate finding a replacement tub and starting over.

I hate loosing the CSL VIN I have, but my safety trumps originality.

Any thoughts from those who have been here before?