1972 3.0 csi - steering/suspension issue/question

CDB2

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Folks,

New to this forum, but my Dad, whose car this was prior to his passing, was a member.

Grew up bleeding brakes, tinkering, etc with him. Came home from the hospital in a Bavaria. A '76 2002 was my first car.

This is now my ride, including massive records, 4-5 binders of original e9 tech binders, parts, etc. On recent drives the steering has been "floating" more and more. Thoughts on how to troubleshoot?

Originally I thought new bushings and related would be the approach. This is how the front end parts look.

Welcome any and all advice!

Many thanks,
Dan

IMG_3086.jpegIMG_3085.jpegIMG_3088.jpegIMG_3087.jpegIMG_3416.jpeg
 
Hi! and welcome to the forum!. I'm sure others with direct E9 experience will chime in. I have an E9 that is on the glide path to restoration as I approach retirement, but most of my experience is on an early 635, which has a similar front suspension and steering system.

Your photos ar a bit daunting. Not sure how far you want to dive in, but here are my immediate observations.

There is a fair amount of rust on the left side suspension components. It is doubtful they are rusted to the point of losing integrity, but in an abundance of caution, I'd probe them to be sure they have at least some integrity. Hard to see from the pics, but the nuts holding the tension strut, (the angled rod that end at the bushings and nuts that are prominnent in your photos) look like the nuts have corroded badly. But really the entire suspension subcarrier looks like it should be rebuilt, since replacing it in pieces seems like lot of extra work.

All that said, it is not clear if that would cause the problem you are describing. "floating" is not exactly descriptive. I assume that when you steer the car in some direction, it sort of goes there, but is not particularly precise. While it is possible that this is due to suspension members moving in their rubber bushings, it could also be caused by the multiple ball joints that make up the steering linkage, or it could be the steering box itself.

Here is a diagram of the steering linkage.
Screenshot 2025-03-22 at 8.26.48 PM.png


Any (or all!) of the various joint linkages in this system could be loose , or worn to the point of failure, and this would introduce play in the linkage and cause your observed "float"). I'd start by jacking up one side of the car. Remove the wheel and try rocking the hub back and forth as if the wheel was steering. if the linkage moves significantly, look to see where it is stationary. The other side wheel is presumably not moving, so if the jacked up side moves, you should be able to see what is moving and what is not, and from that determine if there is one or more loose joints. My guess, based on the look of the rest of the suspension) is the ball joints are all shot, and collectively they add a lot of play. One or more MAY also be loose (as in insufficiently torqued) as well.

In most cases on a car this old, it is easier to replace most of the moving parts. You can find many examples of this in the forum. But basically you disconnect the steering box from the steering linkage, remove the brake calipers from the steering knuckles (either remove them entirely and replace the flex lines and re-bleed after installation, or hang them out of the way in the wheel well). Disconnect the struts from above (in the engine bay). Disconnect the subframe from the car, and drop the assembly down. You can then either try to drag it out from under the car and disassemble it, or disassemble it in place on the ground under the car. Some of this will require spring compressors, some nuts will not come loose, and probably a few of the linkages will be unsalvageable.

Do some homework before hand and obtain the linkage parts you think will need to be replaced (tie rods, center link, bushings, etc.)and then you can cut the recalcitrant linkages with an angle grinder (likely to become a well-used tool!!) . Have the sub frame blasted, and check the integrity of what's left. Fix things like that broken tow loop, and then have the sub-frame powder coated, or at least painted with a high quality epoxy paint (as you can see, it lives a hard life down there!). While all of this is out, check the steering box and refit or replace as necessary (these do not seem to go bad frequently, so hopefully this is not the case here).

There are numerous threads here on re-assembly, including many on installing those big bushings at the front of the sub-frame. You may want to replace the springs while all of this is apart. My source for these part is Carl Nelson (La Jolla Independent), but you can get them from other folks as well. The forum is a great resource for sourcing parts. Clean and paint everything so that when it is all back together you will not want to put it in the car without cleaning and refurbishing the under side of the car and the wheel wells, and then everything else!! ;) ) . Then you will have truly joined the madness!!

Good luck!!
Scott
 
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Hi! and welcome to the forum!. I'm sure others with direct E9 experience will chime in. I have an E9 that is on the glide path to restoration as I approach retirement, but most of my experience is on an early 635, which has a similar front suspension and steering system.

Your photos ar a bit daunting. Not sure how far you want to dive in, but here are my immediate observations.

There is a fair amount of rust on the left side suspension components. It is doubtful they are rusted to the point of losing integrity, but in an abundance of caution, I'd probe them to be sure they have at least some integrity. Hard to see from the pics, but the nuts holding the tension strut, (the angled rod that end at the bushings and nuts that are prominnent in your photos) look like the nuts have corroded badly. But really the entire suspension subcarrier looks like it should be rebuilt, since replacing it in pieces seems like lot of extra work.

All that said, it is not clear if that would cause the problem you are describing. "floating" is not exactly descriptive. I assume that when you steer the car in some direction, it sort of goes there, but is not particularly precise. While it is possible that this is due to suspension members moving in their rubber bushings, it could also be caused by the multiple ball joints that make up the steering linkage, or it could be the steering box itself.

Here is a diagram of the steering linkage.
View attachment 199634

Any (or all!) of the various joint linkages in this system could be loose , or worn to the point of failure, and this would introduce play in the linkage and cause your observed "float"). I'd start by jacking up one side of the car. Remove the wheel and try rocking the hub back and forth as if the wheel was steering. if the linkage moves significantly, look to see where it is stationary. The other side wheel is presumably not moving, so if the jacked up side moves, you should be able to see what is moving and what is not, and from that determine if there is one or more loose joints. My guess, based on the look of the rest of the suspension) is the ball joints are all shot, and collectively they add a lot of play. One or more MAY also be loose (as in insufficiently torqued) as well.

In most cases on a car this old, it is easier to replace most of the moving parts. You can find many examples of this in the forum. But basically you disconnect the steering box from the steering linkage, remove the brake calipers from the steering knuckles (either remove them entirely and replace the flex lines and re-bleed after installation, or hang them out of the way in the wheel well). Disconnect the struts form above (in the engine bay). Disconnect the subframe from the car, and drop the assembly down. You can then either try to drag is out from under the car and disassemble it, or disassemble it in place on the ground under the car. Some of this will require spring compressors, some nuts will not come loose, and probably a few of the linkages will be unsalvageable.

Do some homework before hand and obtain the linkage parts you think will need to be replaced (tie rods, center link, bushings, etc.)and then you can cut the recalcitrant linkages with an angle grinder (likely to become a well-used tool!!) . Have the sub frame blasted, and check the integrity of what's left. Fix things like that broken tow loop, and then have the sub-frame powder coated, or at least painted with a high quality epoxy paint (as you can see, it lives a hard life down there!). While all of this is out, check the steering box and refit or replace as necessary (these do not seem to go bad frequently, so hopefully this is not the case here).

There are numerous threads here on re-assembly, including many on installing those big bushings at the front of the sub-frame. You may want to replace the springs while all of this is apart. My source for these part is Carl Nelson (La Jolla Independent), but you can get them from other folks as well. The forum is a great resource for sourcing parts. Clean and paint everything so that when it is all back together you will not want to put it in the car without cleaning and refurbishing the under side of the car and the wheel wells, and then everything else!! ;) ) . Then you will have truly joined the madness!!

Good luck!!
Scott
Wow, @ScottAndrews , can't thank you enough for that. I start and crawl around her weekly, but when my wife drove her on a little cruise she immediately remarked on the "floaty" vibe. I started poking around, saw what I shared, and was concerned.

I can turn the wrench a bit, but generally on Euro cars worth far less, so the biggest risk is pissing off my better half when the garage is "occupied" as I search for other parts. In this case, I know how special a car she is and 1) I don't want to break something that will take months to find yet 2) she deserves to ride!

Locally, Bill Arnold has worked on her and met my Pops. Years ago when Dad (Bill Bremer) was a field Marshall at rally events in northern Maine, Bill (Arnold) was ripping some awesome e28 (I think - maybe prior gen 5). I went with Dad mid-90's when he was debating between the 3.0, an auto 928 and an older 911 with a vague history. My vote was clear.

So appreciate that awesome breakdown. Great ways to assess the path. One of the better "awards" for this e9 haha.

.tempImageQ9BfPx.png

Happy tp be here. Thanks again @ScottAndrews
Dan
 
Wow, @ScottAndrews , can't thank you enough for that. I start and crawl around her weekly, but when my wife drove her on a little cruise she immediately remarked on the "floaty" vibe. I started poking around, saw what I shared, and was concerned.

I can turn the wrench a bit, but generally on Euro cars worth far less, so the biggest risk is pissing off my better half when the garage is "occupied" as I search for other parts. In this case, I know how special a car she is and 1) I don't want to break something that will take months to find yet 2) she deserves to ride!

Locally, Bill Arnold has worked on her and met my Pops. Years ago when Dad (Bill Bremer) was a field Marshall at rally events in northern Maine, Bill (Arnold) was ripping some awesome e28 (I think - maybe prior gen 5). I went with Dad mid-90's when he was debating between the 3.0, an auto 928 and an older 911 with a vague history. My vote was clear.

So appreciate that awesome breakdown. Great ways to assess the path. One of the better "awards" for this e9 haha.

.View attachment 199635

Happy tp be here. Thanks again @ScottAndrews
Dan
Dan, great to have you here. please send me a DM with the VIN# of your car and the color.
thanks
scott
 
As Scott A pointed out those big bushings are really tough to get in and out.

Also as he mentioned the tie rod assembly is likely more a culprit. Under tension, they can seem fine. Possibly even visually looking okay. It’s when you pull them you notice the slop… wiggling around in their sockets… rounded out holes etc.

That’s pretty easy work. Just need a ball joint separator.
 
here's another question along this topic - what is the size of the big washer - #4 in the pic below. it is NLA, but they don't give us the size to replace it. W+N shows it as shaped to match the bushing, but i see on Maximillian that it is a flat washer ... i thought it was shaped.
1742872627595.png


i see that W+N has it - but is it available anywhere else? don't want to pay 45+ euro for shipping 10 euro of parts.
1742872787526.png
 
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Here ya go:
These pics are from my front axle refresh, parts still waiting to be cleaned and rezinced.

#4 is the large one, visible from the front of the car. It is 3x14.7x68 mm with a 8,5 mm dome.

The slightly smaller one is 2,5mmx 14,5x54mm with a 7 mm dome. Is it the one on the backside of the large rubber where the above also sits against?

The 4 smaller ones are 2,3x14,2x42mm with a 4,7 mm dome. I believe they were mounted on either side of the smaller rubber bushings.
 

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yes, the yellow washer should go great with Ceylon. i guess i will have to give her a name (sooner or later). for now she is being referred to as 'goldie'
 
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