2210270 the first fake ??? not listet in offiziell VIN Rang
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feri
Well-Known Member
Yes it seems so, according to the cs registry vin database this is plain 3.0 cs.
Fake?
I read somewhere that not all the racing teams used CSL's as the basis of their race cars when they were available as.... they were expensive to buy in the first place and expensive to get replacement panels, body wise they were not as strong as the CS, with more chassis flex due to the thinner gauge steel used and as they going to strip them down fully rebuild the suspension, brakes engine to a racing spec etc.. why pay a premium for a CSL. After all the CSL was only the homologation vehicle to allow certain mods to the race cars. Even today I am building up a race car and feel using a CSL would not be right, I would be driving like 'miss daisy' worried about damage and the difficulty in finding a replacement wing, bonnet door skin etc.. should the inevitable racing incident occur. for a privateer team in the 1970's with limited budgets this would be common sense, spend the money on the parts that make the car go faster and stop quicker. this car still has the history and it is a BMW too
I read somewhere that not all the racing teams used CSL's as the basis of their race cars when they were available as.... they were expensive to buy in the first place and expensive to get replacement panels, body wise they were not as strong as the CS, with more chassis flex due to the thinner gauge steel used and as they going to strip them down fully rebuild the suspension, brakes engine to a racing spec etc.. why pay a premium for a CSL. After all the CSL was only the homologation vehicle to allow certain mods to the race cars. Even today I am building up a race car and feel using a CSL would not be right, I would be driving like 'miss daisy' worried about damage and the difficulty in finding a replacement wing, bonnet door skin etc.. should the inevitable racing incident occur. for a privateer team in the 1970's with limited budgets this would be common sense, spend the money on the parts that make the car go faster and stop quicker. this car still has the history and it is a BMW too
feri
Well-Known Member
I understand your point of view, but... We are talking about two different things:
1. Is it a true, periodic BMW CS based race car with periodic race histrory ? Yes
2. It is a true (Vin correct) CSL ? No
Actually I think we don't know the whole story. What we see: there is a website which says there is a BMW CSL race car with a non CSL Vin number.
But :
- we haven't checked the period race program books to see how is this car is entered: as a CS / CSi or a CSL.
- we haven't seen any other source telling what is the VIN number (probably this website lists incorrect Vin ?).
If the website VIN information is corrent and it is told that this car is a CSL but actually it is not, then my main problem that from 1969 to around 1981 there were a few dozens of CS race car which were happily advertised as 2800 CS or 3.0 CS, or 3.0 CSi. There is no shame about owning a non CSL, periodic race car.
But if all these informations are correct on the website, this car is fake CSL race car.
1. Is it a true, periodic BMW CS based race car with periodic race histrory ? Yes
2. It is a true (Vin correct) CSL ? No
Actually I think we don't know the whole story. What we see: there is a website which says there is a BMW CSL race car with a non CSL Vin number.
But :
- we haven't checked the period race program books to see how is this car is entered: as a CS / CSi or a CSL.
- we haven't seen any other source telling what is the VIN number (probably this website lists incorrect Vin ?).
If the website VIN information is corrent and it is told that this car is a CSL but actually it is not, then my main problem that from 1969 to around 1981 there were a few dozens of CS race car which were happily advertised as 2800 CS or 3.0 CS, or 3.0 CSi. There is no shame about owning a non CSL, periodic race car.
But if all these informations are correct on the website, this car is fake CSL race car.
feri
Well-Known Member
dp:
We had already spent to much time to figure out is it a fake CSL or not, but so far still hasn't got any other source of its VIN number than that racingsportscars.com info.
This car can be a periodic race car, but if the VIN is not in the CSL range, it is not a true CSL racer (only a 197x 3.0 CS race car, which is not bad, but still not a CSL).
We had already spent to much time to figure out is it a fake CSL or not, but so far still hasn't got any other source of its VIN number than that racingsportscars.com info.
This car can be a periodic race car, but if the VIN is not in the CSL range, it is not a true CSL racer (only a 197x 3.0 CS race car, which is not bad, but still not a CSL).
chicane
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Once again many of the privateer cars were not "genuine" CSL's (2800's, Cs's, CSi's). These cars are NOT "fakes"
But since they were fully race prepared, fender flares, wings, bigger engine most people identified them as CSL's.
Their value doesn't come from their VIN it comes from their race history. These race "CSL"'s are worth far more than any street CSL.
But since they were fully race prepared, fender flares, wings, bigger engine most people identified them as CSL's.
Their value doesn't come from their VIN it comes from their race history. These race "CSL"'s are worth far more than any street CSL.
chicane
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feri said:dp:
We had already spent to much time to figure out is it a fake CSL or not, but so far still hasn't got any other source of its VIN number than that racingsportscars.com info.
This car can be a periodic race car, but if the VIN is not in the CSL range, it is not a true CSL racer (only a 197x 3.0 CS race car, which is not bad, but still not a CSL).
WRONG. It is very much an FIA CSL race car. YOU simply do not know what you are talking about.
feri
Well-Known Member
chicane said:feri said:dp:
We had already spent to much time to figure out is it a fake CSL or not, but so far still hasn't got any other source of its VIN number than that racingsportscars.com info.
This car can be a periodic race car, but if the VIN is not in the CSL range, it is not a true CSL racer (only a 197x 3.0 CS race car, which is not bad, but still not a CSL).
WRONG. It is very much an FIA CSL race car. YOU simply do not know what you are talking about.
What do you think about the VIN number ?
golfcsl 1972
New Member
Greetings,
There are many CS's that were converted into CSL "looking cars" and raced as CSL's during the 1970's. During the day, once a car is stripped and fiberglass added and/or you change race class or upgrade the car, really what's the functional difference... especially after a few accidents?
Peter Herke had a CS (2210270?) that was converted into a CS/CSL and years later stored at his BMW Repair shop near Castro Valley, California for decades and sold it 10-15 years ago. I do not know if he sold it as a CS/CSL or a CSL.
Steve Earle, Steve Griswold and Rick Knoop raced a CSL "looking" CS at Daytona Florida in the late 1970's (1976-1978?), was later purchase by Arthur Porter in the 1990's (I think) and I saw it being re-restored at Sears Point Raceway (Auto Spa?) within the last 7 years. (FYI, I have known all three drivers 30-40+ years and still vintage race with Earle.)
Be very careful about assuming a racing CS/CSL is a real CSL. Both have value, but understand what you are buying.
Cheers,
Scott
2212260
There are many CS's that were converted into CSL "looking cars" and raced as CSL's during the 1970's. During the day, once a car is stripped and fiberglass added and/or you change race class or upgrade the car, really what's the functional difference... especially after a few accidents?
Peter Herke had a CS (2210270?) that was converted into a CS/CSL and years later stored at his BMW Repair shop near Castro Valley, California for decades and sold it 10-15 years ago. I do not know if he sold it as a CS/CSL or a CSL.
Steve Earle, Steve Griswold and Rick Knoop raced a CSL "looking" CS at Daytona Florida in the late 1970's (1976-1978?), was later purchase by Arthur Porter in the 1990's (I think) and I saw it being re-restored at Sears Point Raceway (Auto Spa?) within the last 7 years. (FYI, I have known all three drivers 30-40+ years and still vintage race with Earle.)
Be very careful about assuming a racing CS/CSL is a real CSL. Both have value, but understand what you are buying.
Cheers,
Scott
2212260
2275xxx
Well-Known Member
For the FIA what is important is the technical conformitiy of a car to the homologation papers.
There are only two types of E9 BMWs homologated in Group 2 : the 2800CS and the 3.0CSL.
Both homologations were modified several times to allow the cars to progress and to comply with new rules - like the new Gr2 set of rules of 1976.
The 2800CS was homologated on 28 Feb 1969 (homologation #1558 and subsequently also #1585 and #5384).
The 3.0CSL was homologated in November 1972, but most of the first important modifications were added on March 1st 1973.
Before 1972 all cars were raced as 2800CS Gr2, even if they were 3.0cs or 3.0csl with alloy panels removed.
From 1973 all cars were raced as 30CSL, even if they were ex-2800CS Gr2 or 3.0CS/CSi built to CSL spec.
Chassis number was a non-issue for the FIA at that time and it is interesting to note that the reference chassis number on the 1st page of the homologation of the CSL is 2 210 001 - a 3.0CS chassis number.
A number of cars started their lives as 2800cs, were raced by Alpina or Schnitzer in 1970/71 and were eventualy sold to other teams or to privateers after one or two seasons - sometimes in updated form.
In 1973 BMW Motorsport built a batch of special ultralight race shells (about 20 ?), with many modifications : stiffening, different rear supension mounting points, central location for the windscreen wiper, ….
These shells were used over the years for all Motorspost cars, but a also a few were sold to the “tuners”:
the last 12v Alpina (raced end of 73, 74 in orange and 77 in green Gösser livery),
the last 12v Schnitzer (built in 1976),
the two UFO Luigis of 1977.
Most other race CSLs were either updated 2800CS Gr2s from 1970-71-72 or early CSLs with VINs from the 2211-2212 series.
Only a handful of 2275 chassis were used for race cars.
A few examples:
In 1972 the Schnitzer of Alain Peltier, the Dutch Alimpo Alpina, the Luigi Marabout and the Broadspeed CSL had CSL VINs. They all had to be converted to normal CS with steel doors and bonnets (because of this the Golf yellow car of Peltier had white doors and bonnets in the first race of 1972 in Monza).
On the contrary I am pretty sure that the only car raced by Schnitzer in 1973 had a non-CSL schell.
The same year the Alpina "Wyborowa" CSL owned and raced by Walter Brun was in fact an old Schnitzer 2800cs updated by Alpina
In 1974 the Alpina CSL raced by Müller/Ogrodowcyk was an ex Alpina 2800CS.
In 1976 the winner of Gr2 at Le Mans and the winner of the SPA 24h were both CSLs built from non-CSL shells.
There are only two types of E9 BMWs homologated in Group 2 : the 2800CS and the 3.0CSL.
Both homologations were modified several times to allow the cars to progress and to comply with new rules - like the new Gr2 set of rules of 1976.
The 2800CS was homologated on 28 Feb 1969 (homologation #1558 and subsequently also #1585 and #5384).
The 3.0CSL was homologated in November 1972, but most of the first important modifications were added on March 1st 1973.
Before 1972 all cars were raced as 2800CS Gr2, even if they were 3.0cs or 3.0csl with alloy panels removed.
From 1973 all cars were raced as 30CSL, even if they were ex-2800CS Gr2 or 3.0CS/CSi built to CSL spec.
Chassis number was a non-issue for the FIA at that time and it is interesting to note that the reference chassis number on the 1st page of the homologation of the CSL is 2 210 001 - a 3.0CS chassis number.
A number of cars started their lives as 2800cs, were raced by Alpina or Schnitzer in 1970/71 and were eventualy sold to other teams or to privateers after one or two seasons - sometimes in updated form.
In 1973 BMW Motorsport built a batch of special ultralight race shells (about 20 ?), with many modifications : stiffening, different rear supension mounting points, central location for the windscreen wiper, ….
These shells were used over the years for all Motorspost cars, but a also a few were sold to the “tuners”:
the last 12v Alpina (raced end of 73, 74 in orange and 77 in green Gösser livery),
the last 12v Schnitzer (built in 1976),
the two UFO Luigis of 1977.
Most other race CSLs were either updated 2800CS Gr2s from 1970-71-72 or early CSLs with VINs from the 2211-2212 series.
Only a handful of 2275 chassis were used for race cars.
A few examples:
In 1972 the Schnitzer of Alain Peltier, the Dutch Alimpo Alpina, the Luigi Marabout and the Broadspeed CSL had CSL VINs. They all had to be converted to normal CS with steel doors and bonnets (because of this the Golf yellow car of Peltier had white doors and bonnets in the first race of 1972 in Monza).
On the contrary I am pretty sure that the only car raced by Schnitzer in 1973 had a non-CSL schell.
The same year the Alpina "Wyborowa" CSL owned and raced by Walter Brun was in fact an old Schnitzer 2800cs updated by Alpina
In 1974 the Alpina CSL raced by Müller/Ogrodowcyk was an ex Alpina 2800CS.
In 1976 the winner of Gr2 at Le Mans and the winner of the SPA 24h were both CSLs built from non-CSL shells.
chicane
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feri said:chicane said:feri said:dp:
We had already spent to much time to figure out is it a fake CSL or not, but so far still hasn't got any other source of its VIN number than that racingsportscars.com info.
This car can be a periodic race car, but if the VIN is not in the CSL range, it is not a true CSL racer (only a 197x 3.0 CS race car, which is not bad, but still not a CSL).
WRONG. It is very much an FIA CSL race car. YOU simply do not know what you are talking about.
What do you think about the VIN number ?
I don't think anything about it. Genuine vintage 70's FIA race car values are based on the cars history ( logbook, provenance, and race history) NOT VIN NUMBERS! If you knew what you were talking about you would know that. An interesting FIA group 2 or 4 E9 racer will easily fetch 6 figures.
CSL
Someone having a bad hair day? Or didn't get the link?
:roll:
Someone having a bad hair day? Or didn't get the link?
:roll:
abe3.0CSi
Well-Known Member
"civil virtues" ...personal habits and attitudes that are conductive to social harmony and group well-being.
I am not perfect...but more and more I see less and less civility on forums, home, society....it is an epidemic worse than influenza.
abe
I am not perfect...but more and more I see less and less civility on forums, home, society....it is an epidemic worse than influenza.
abe
blumax
(deceased)
Hats off to the "really knowledgable" members
The announcement of fake etc is a boring repetition that comes around from time to time and the sources insist they are "right"--
Yet when obvious knowledge is brought to the board snd shared by Golf CSL and 2275xxx the silence becomes deafening. My compliments go out to you two. I don't profess to have the intimate racing knowledge that you have just shared --only some early resources in now long out of print books of BMW's racing history covering those "Glory Years".
Also--the priviledge of a 25 year friendship with one of the early members of the Von Falkenhausen, Paul Rosche engineering team who were the key figures behind what made the race cars go fast then. From the mid-sixties--my friend then fresh out of the University of Copenhagen --and almost immediately became one of the key members of design for BMW's race engines--this genius of design, then in his late 20's, was key to the cylinder head design for our "big six", the twin cam 16 valve that became successful in formula 2 and evolved to F-1--and then had great input on the twin cam 24 valve that powered the last of the racing CSL's. We met late in 1981 when I was a fortunate owner of an M-1--#199--that was powered with essentially the same engine de-tuned for street use--but fun no less. He attended many of the races in those earlier days with Paul Rosche (the guru of race engines) from 1968 through 1972 as BMW was restoring its image of racing success and dominance it had enjoyed in their earlier years. They have remained friends over those several decades and have worked together as recently as last Summer and maybe again this Summer as he spends them in Europe.
He freely shared his experiences with me over the 24 years he lived nearby in SoCal including inviting me to become privy to seeing the unfolding process of many of the numerous race and high performance engine designs he created during that time--and to meet the specialists who made the molds, the alloy foundry people, automated machinists systems, etc etc that go into the process of evolution from his design concepts to hearing them run for the first time in the dyno room. In recent years he has been a key consultant to BMW's racing success here in the US and the same to Honda's success in a different class of racing. Regrettably he no longer lives in SoCal to continue our closer contact.
The announcement of fake etc is a boring repetition that comes around from time to time and the sources insist they are "right"--
Yet when obvious knowledge is brought to the board snd shared by Golf CSL and 2275xxx the silence becomes deafening. My compliments go out to you two. I don't profess to have the intimate racing knowledge that you have just shared --only some early resources in now long out of print books of BMW's racing history covering those "Glory Years".
Also--the priviledge of a 25 year friendship with one of the early members of the Von Falkenhausen, Paul Rosche engineering team who were the key figures behind what made the race cars go fast then. From the mid-sixties--my friend then fresh out of the University of Copenhagen --and almost immediately became one of the key members of design for BMW's race engines--this genius of design, then in his late 20's, was key to the cylinder head design for our "big six", the twin cam 16 valve that became successful in formula 2 and evolved to F-1--and then had great input on the twin cam 24 valve that powered the last of the racing CSL's. We met late in 1981 when I was a fortunate owner of an M-1--#199--that was powered with essentially the same engine de-tuned for street use--but fun no less. He attended many of the races in those earlier days with Paul Rosche (the guru of race engines) from 1968 through 1972 as BMW was restoring its image of racing success and dominance it had enjoyed in their earlier years. They have remained friends over those several decades and have worked together as recently as last Summer and maybe again this Summer as he spends them in Europe.
He freely shared his experiences with me over the 24 years he lived nearby in SoCal including inviting me to become privy to seeing the unfolding process of many of the numerous race and high performance engine designs he created during that time--and to meet the specialists who made the molds, the alloy foundry people, automated machinists systems, etc etc that go into the process of evolution from his design concepts to hearing them run for the first time in the dyno room. In recent years he has been a key consultant to BMW's racing success here in the US and the same to Honda's success in a different class of racing. Regrettably he no longer lives in SoCal to continue our closer contact.
timt
Well-Known Member
I come to this thread late as I have been away for a couple of weeks.
I echo blumax's and Yannick's comments, thank you to Golf CSL and 2275xxx.
When this car was advertised for sale earlier this year I started a little research into it ... yes it is the ex Peter Herke car, sold on via John Starkey and quoting an erroneous VIN one digit out which was probably a typo (my speculation). It carries good provenance from its original days in 1972 as a CS converted to a Group 2 race car by Falz-Alpina driven primarily by the privateer Graziano Cancian. When Peter Herke acquired it he converted it to a Group 5 spec and it was campaigned in the US as many will remember. It is race history is traceable on the web. The car was sold into the UK in 2007 and restored to its original Group 2 spec and put up for sale again ... where I came in.
The chairman of the UK BMW CC went to see it earlier this and wrote it up in the club magazine - published with some photographs of it through the years. I also spoke to the the owner about it to understand a little of the history and to clarify some points. It is probably now at least equal to or possibly better than it was when it rolled up to its first race in 1972. As others have written already, race car conformance is to FIA specification, not to street car commercial specification ... some of these cars (aka CSLs) were racing before the marketeers labelled them as CSLs.
A comment on the original thread - if someone has evidence of a fake then let's publish that but please don't speculate or suggest that something may be a fake simply because it doesn't appear to meet the current perception of a label. There are fakes about as has been highlighted but, unsubstantiated public statement can be embarrassing at best and unnecessarily damaging (expensively so) at worst. One can argue that we all have a duty to expose fakes but we should do it sensibly ... at least this thread managed the speculation reasonably quickly. I hope that it's dead now.
I echo blumax's and Yannick's comments, thank you to Golf CSL and 2275xxx.
When this car was advertised for sale earlier this year I started a little research into it ... yes it is the ex Peter Herke car, sold on via John Starkey and quoting an erroneous VIN one digit out which was probably a typo (my speculation). It carries good provenance from its original days in 1972 as a CS converted to a Group 2 race car by Falz-Alpina driven primarily by the privateer Graziano Cancian. When Peter Herke acquired it he converted it to a Group 5 spec and it was campaigned in the US as many will remember. It is race history is traceable on the web. The car was sold into the UK in 2007 and restored to its original Group 2 spec and put up for sale again ... where I came in.
The chairman of the UK BMW CC went to see it earlier this and wrote it up in the club magazine - published with some photographs of it through the years. I also spoke to the the owner about it to understand a little of the history and to clarify some points. It is probably now at least equal to or possibly better than it was when it rolled up to its first race in 1972. As others have written already, race car conformance is to FIA specification, not to street car commercial specification ... some of these cars (aka CSLs) were racing before the marketeers labelled them as CSLs.
A comment on the original thread - if someone has evidence of a fake then let's publish that but please don't speculate or suggest that something may be a fake simply because it doesn't appear to meet the current perception of a label. There are fakes about as has been highlighted but, unsubstantiated public statement can be embarrassing at best and unnecessarily damaging (expensively so) at worst. One can argue that we all have a duty to expose fakes but we should do it sensibly ... at least this thread managed the speculation reasonably quickly. I hope that it's dead now.