74 bumper swap...

jranmann

jranmann

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I plan a look at a '74 (for myself) this weekend and would like a few more expert opinions as to the cost (and possible pitfalls) when converting US DOT '74 bumpers to the euro-spec or pre US '74 units... or perhaps run a spoiler (without front bumper) and just re-do the rears which seems to look very nice indeed IMHO...is this legal in the US?

This red '74 below incidently sold last month in San Francisco. I did not buy it as it was from MA, had some serious interior issues and a non working sunroof, without headliner, etc. It seems there might also be benefit to purchasing one of these later cars, in that the last of the CS Coupes such as these seemingly did have some nice factory upgrades IIRC, such as tighter suspension, a bit better brakes, hydralics, etc that might be worthwhile to pursue. Any info on precisely how the post 73 cars differed from the earlier 3.0's would be also appreciated.

74bf_31.jpg


On the bumper swap, specifically what body work is required to hide fitment holes and or make the swap mostly unnoticable as this car also has new original color paint already? Just why he didn't do this prior to the new paint (and also eliminate the markers) baffles me...I saw the rear bumper elements this forum anyone have a straight front and rear set up for sale?

I previously got some very good info here on this subject from Stan (this forum) but would appreciate a few more expert opinions on the various ways to improve the look of the stock US 74...here's a few more pics of
the red US 74 above...

http://galileoweb.org/chinnc/old-pages/1974-3-0cs/

Thanks!

Ran
 
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jranmann said:
It seems there might also be benefit to purchasing one of these later cars, in that the last of the CS Coupes such as these seemingly did have some nice factory upgrades IIRC, such as tighter suspension, a bit better brakes, hydralics, etc that might be worthwhile to pursue. Any info on precisely how the post 73 cars differed from the earlier 3.0's would be also appreciated.

I previously got some very good info here on this subject from Stan (this forum) but would appreciate a few more expert opinions on the various ways to improve the look of the stock US 74...here's a few more pics of
the red US 74 above...

Thanks!

Ran
Click to expand...

There are major differences in US and Euro E9s. First, the compression ratio in the US 3.0CS was reduced to 8:1, while the Euro cars were 9:1, giving them more power. The US cars have side marker lights in the front and back, which go next to the main turn signals. The later (>73) US cars have additional smog equipment, such as an EGR system. Starting in 1974 the US versions came with large 5mph aluminum bumpers front and rear. Although these large bumpers are said to take away from the beautiful lines of the coupe, the 5mph crash bumpers work well and have saved a number of coupes over the years. Some owners prefer the later large bumpered cars if they do a lot of driving in the city or traffic. Later US coupes also have a "Fasten Seat Belt" light pod on the dash. The Euro gauges are in Metric, while the US ones are in standard. The heater vent controls are either in German or in the international symbols for Euro cars, while they are in English for the US cars. Euro cars also only had a lap belt, while US cars have stock shoulder belts. This is usually already fixed, as most of the Euro cars have shoulder belts added later on, either as part of the federalization process or the owner added them. The US also had slightly larger front turn signal lenses. A slight difference in Euro models can be seen in Italian coupes, which have a white and amber turn signal lens, rather than the all amber used everywhere else. French cars have yellow headlight lenses and amber reverse lights. All US models have DOT required spacers on top of R/L strut below inner engine compartment sheet metal to raise front end height approximately 1" to meet sealed beam headlight height requirements. Early cars had cloissoine roundels at "C' pillar and chromed brass trim between tailights which was changed to raised painted alum. roundels and anodized alum. during 1972 model run to reduce costs. Early cars had wider stock seats and seat back release mechanism at the hinge, by 1971 a small lever mounted on outside of upper seat edge replaced the old mechanism.

ref. from http://www.e9coupe.com/faq-general.htm
 
Thanks for the detailed reply Shark...perhaps you have seen this Italian '72 that's been on the market the past few months ebay without a bid which seems to feature the differences you mention.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...witem=&_trkparms=tab=Watching#ht_12729wt_1167

I believe the radio antenna was located on the rear deck passenger side euro as well...which IMHO is a better location visually. My e24 ( e28 based ) is of the US 5mph bumper variety and they have been insturmental in saving my nose and tail along the way...and changing them out for a more euro look is def. more of an issue that one might at first suspect as there are 2 differnt styles (being the 'world bumpers' from 87 onward and the earlier euro ones)each require some filling, planning, repaint and special trim.

I was also reading in the 'stock e9 handling' thread started by Auto-x here regarding "mid-73 ->on factory that involved front suspension changes, front carrier geometry, strut housing bases, control arms, etc etc" and the larger front swaybar and deletion of the rear swaybar...and also wondered if these mods were an improvement or not to overall handling given the added bumper weight, etc.

On the EGR system the engine in the 71 2800CS that I looked at last weekend as I recall should not have had the EGR air pump and yet it did giving rise to my assumption about the engine swap some time ago. This system is definetely crude and destructive and was well solved with the introduction of Bosch's Motoronic I belive in the 1981-2 BMW models.

I suppose what I am tempted by is the 74's original Chamonix color but the tradeoff is the US Cars Smog, bumper safety and seat belt indicator and the fact that it's an auto transmission that will need swapping out. It's more difficult than one might imagine to find the 'just right' coupe these days at a reasonable price!

Cheers!

Ran
 
I mentioned in a previous post that I had the bumper conversion done in conjuction with a paint job. I don't remember the shop charging me extra; if they did, the cost was negligible. Look for a smaller shop that is hungry for work (who isn't these days) rather than a larger shop that specializes in collisions (they probably won't want to touch a coupe anyway) or a high end restorer who will want an arm and leg. I currently own '74 with the big bumpers that I plan on going bumperless in front with an Alpina air dam and a CSL bumper for the rear. Sorry, I don't have specifics on what bumper work was done to make the fitment look stock, but I imagine that converting the rear is fairly straight forward.

WRT difference between post '74 and earlier cars, from personal experience (have owned 2 pre and 2 post) I have noticed that the steering is not as crisp/lively in the '74 and later coupes than with the '73 and earlier (all with similar suspension setups, both '74s were autos; '73s manual). Of course there are trim differences like the power window switches, fuse panel access door knobs, etc. IMHO the seats in the pre '74 cars look better to me. They seem slightly smaller than the post '74s and maybe a little more sporty looking as a result; plus I like the vertical as opposed to the horizontal slats. I do like a couple of things, interior wise, from '74s and later: The seatbelts are in a better (more aesthetically pleasing at least) location and I prefer the perforated inserts in the door panels over the basketweave pattern.

As everyone always says, rust should be the biggest consideration when purchasing a coupe. If you find a '74 coupe with minimal rust but a lousy motor, driveline, and interior, I would take that over rusty '73 with a great motor, etc. I speak from personal experience on this. My current '74 is a dog (3.0L, carb'd, auto) in comparison to my '73 (3.5L, 1.3 motronic FI, 5spd) but I can honestly say it has no rust; I can't say that for the '73. Guess which one I'm going to keep.

Walt
 
Thanks for the informative reply, Walt...

I mentioned in a previous post that I had the bumper conversion done in conjuction with a paint job. I don't remember the shop charging me extra; if they did, the cost was negligible.
Click to expand...
I failed to mention that the '73 I am seeing tomorrow has fresh paint...which always makes it difficult to accuratley assess the ever present rust issues as you say and also makes the bumper swap more of an issue than yours was perhaps given your intention of repainting that you mention...Must have been a pleasure to see it finished eh?

Personally after 30 years of BMW driving (new and classic) I am convinced that BMW very often gets it right in the beginning (model years) and then for one reason or another, the same car in progressive years just doesn't improve much and actually gets more banal, less ergonomic and frankly less fun to own...Viewing this 74 is another test of that theory I suppose. I do like the look you've chosen without front bumper, Air dam and the original bumper at the rear (just how does the CSL rear actually differ, visually?)

I do have a hard time imagining your choice of the non-rusty '74 over a 3.5 1.3 FI five speed, but as I always say too... 'could happen?'

Thanks again Walt!
 
jranmann said:
I believe the radio antenna was located on the rear deck passenger side euro as well...


My e24 ( e28 based ) is of the US 5mph bumper variety and they have been insturmental in saving my nose and tail along the way...and changing them out for a more euro look is def. more of an issue that one might at first suspect as there are 2 differnt styles (being the 'world bumpers' from 87 onward and the earlier euro ones)each require some filling, planning, repaint and special trim.



I was also reading in the 'stock e9 handling' thread started by Auto-x here regarding "mid-73 ->on factory that involved front suspension changes, front carrier geometry, strut housing bases, control arms, etc etc" and the larger front swaybar and deletion of the rear swaybar...and also wondered if these mods were an improvement or not to overall handling given the added bumper weight, etc.
Click to expand...
As best as I can tell, no radio antennas were installed at the factory, certainly not for US cars. Placement was where ever the installer chose. Could be either side of either front or rear fender and I have even seen a couple with roof antennas.

The mounting systems for the chrome bumpers are very different from those for the aluminum bumpers. The aluminum bumper bodies have much larger holes where the bumper shocks come through and these are quite obvious in the front if they are not covered. I think there are also extra holes in the fenders where the ends of the rubber bellows are fastened.

The aluminum bumper cars weigh more (100lbs?) and it is all out at the ends of the car, which does nothing good for handling. I've never seen any explanation for the suspension changes, but I think they must be because of the extra weight.
 
Bill Riblett said:
As best as I can tell, no radio antennas were installed at the factory, certainly not for US cars. Placement was where ever the installer chose. Could be either side of either front or rear fender and I have even seen a couple with roof antennas.
The mounting systems for the chrome bumpers are very different from those for the aluminum bumpers. The aluminum bumper bodies have much larger holes where the bumper shocks come through and these are quite obvious in the front if they are not covered. I think there are also extra holes in the fenders where the ends of the rubber bellows are fastened. The aluminum bumper cars weigh more (100lbs?) and it is all out at the ends of the car, which does nothing good for handling. I've never seen any explanation for the suspension changes, but I think they must be because of the extra weight.
Click to expand...

1) radio antennae : variety of locations clearly demo no "stock" location, my personal favorite location (if you gotta have it) is the a-pillar a' la '02's
2) don't the safety bumpers have big bulky shock mounts that are incorporporated into/over/in lieu of the recess slots that chrome bumper domehead bolts slide into? I sould think it's be a LOT of work to "correctly" mount chromies (meaning, as-factory)
3) the suspension changes soften/deadened the ride and driving characteristics...remember the front suspension is identical to the E3's. E3's and E9's were getting heavier, the geometry changes in the front also reduced premature wear on the front tires. I think the pulling of the rear sway bar was a combination of cost-cutting and "who needs it now" since the front camber geometry change killed the "driving machine" handling characteristic. E9's really didn't tap into a super-driver-enthusiast market then anyways, and (IMO) the "evolution" was towards what makes boulevardeers happy as they tool around lookin' good. Prolly not unlike 2/3 of the folk who drive 'em today ;-)
 
1) radio antennae : variety of locations clearly demo no "stock" location, my personal favorite location (if you gotta have it) is the a-pillar a' la '02's
2) don't the safety bumpers have big bulky shock mounts that are incorporporated into/over/in lieu of the recess slots that chrome bumper domehead bolts slide into? I sould think it's be a LOT of work to "correctly" mount chromies (meaning, as-factory)
3) the suspension changes soften/deadened the ride and driving characteristics...remember the front suspension is identical to the E3's. E3's and E9's were getting heavier, the geometry changes in the front also reduced premature wear on the front tires. I think the pulling of the rear sway bar was a combination of cost-cutting and "who needs it now" since the front camber geometry change killed the "driving machine" handling characteristic. E9's really didn't tap into a super-driver-enthusiast market then anyways, and (IMO) the "evolution" was towards what makes boulevardeers happy as they tool around lookin' good. Prolly not unlike 2/3 of the folk who drive 'em today
Click to expand...

Aside from the idomatic 'speeling'... it's perfectly stated...how refreshing!

lol!
 
Ran,

I think the CSL bumper is slimmer than the standard (euro) bumper, if only because it does not have the rubber impact strip. A slimmer bumper does not distrub the line of the coupe as much. I toyed with the idea of going bumperless, but ultimately came to the conclusion that the coupe's rear end does benefit from the visual break the bumper gives to the eye.

I am choosing to keep the rust free '74 because it will be cheaper to fix the motor/driveline the way I want it than it will be to properly address all rust on my '73. To have peice of mind that all the rust was addressed I was planning on doing a frame off restoration. I was going to do some of the disassembly and assembly work myself, but I imagine that the paint and body work could easily reach into the upper teens and beyond. Installing a rebuilt motor and driveline will probably cost $10K or less.

My recommendation is that whatever coupe you are looking at, get a professional (preferably someone who knows coupes or someone who is at least familiar with cars of this vintage) to inspect it. I bought two coupes that were inspected prior to purchase and two that weren't; the ones that were inspected were rust free, the others were not. You're in CA, right? I would contact Carl Nelson (La Jolla Inp) or Peter Sliskovich (Coupeking) and ask if they know of any coupes available. I bought two coupes inspected by Carl, one sight unseen, and was very pleased with both.


Walt
 
Spoke directly with Peter himself last night and he's blessed me with a scheduled appointment later this week...

Thanks too Walt for the heads-up, as I too am using a fully remediated body shell (rolling chassis) and plans are for me to refurbish the interior and exterior trim bits etc at home here myself over this winter and then will have it assembled professionally on the East Coast so the break-in will be 3000 miles of bliss hopefully ... will get back to you on that front!

I also plan to freshen up my e24 over the winter with the body going in for a clean (suspension if now almost like new) so the M30B32 Motronic driveline from that will go into the CS e9 and a newish 3.5 dogleg LSD set up will be done up from scratch for the Sixer...so if I do hallucinate (LSD get it?) it will be the blur from the windscreen of my restored 'go-fast' Sixer and not the 3.0 Coupe...as IMO that car is much more a 'Gentleman's' driver and like a suede dress jacket, the car in modest trim with the confidence inspired by using a new solid rust resistant (dipped) body as a foundation will likely serve me well into the future...

My living will states that if possible I've elected to be entombed inside of the e9 ( at forest lawn, if Big Sur will not allow it as the CA Conservancy Trust and coastal commission holds sway there) ...although I've been thinking that staring at that somewhat freaky (ventilated) headliner fabric from an upside down perspective... from now until well past eternity...might in the long run be a poor idea that unfortunately will have no recourse or remedy...

Makes me think about reconsidering and perhaps donating it to the Peterson museum in Los Angeles or just see that look on a homeless person's face when I hand the keys over so that lucky individual can experience a bit of fun to perhaps offset the angst of living on the street...likely inside of a refrigerator box...Could happen!



Cheers and Happy Turkey day coming up!


Ran
 
'74 Bumper Swap

Here is "Siena" '71 2800 CS bumpers, 635 spoiler. My own design on the front mounts. Body filled the holes in the stern.
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jranmann said:
My living will states that if possible I've elected to be entombed inside of the e9..



Ran
Click to expand...

Million of scientists just had their hopes dashed my friend. They thought you would donate your brain to science. :)
 
Nice job on the front bumper.

How difficult was it to fabricate the custom mounts that you designed?

I recall seeing your post on the shock replacement and it made the process look possible without too much $$ even if you, or someone else did some sheet metal work to cover holes.
 
'74 Bumper Swap

Some before and after shots of "Siena" Many thanks to all that helped. Chris of Eldorodo Upholstery, Courtenay, B.C. The makers of "Dyna" soundproofing. Carl and Co. for their parts, knowhow, and patience. Dan K for the same. (your piece bro') Doug and family.
Cheers
100_0323-2.jpg

100_1106.jpg

100_0320.jpg

100_1109.jpg
 
Arde said:
Million of scientists just had their hopes dashed my friend. They thought you would donate your brain to science. :)
Click to expand...
Since Kennedy's brain went missing I decided that taking it with me might be a bit safer!

lol~

Woz

PS Sienna looks very nice (bumpers esp.) why can't I just cut the cord and move up to Victoria or the San Juan's ... Beautiful!
 
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front air dam/no bumper

I run the front air dam/no bumper combo in MA. MA does require a front license plate but I never have installed it not do I intend to. I've been pulled over a couple of times :-D but the lack of front plate has never come up.

That all said, the more I see Coupes with front air dams that have the front bumper installed as well, the better I like to look.
 
Pamp,

Nice Sienna. I have a '74 Sienna and despite its being brown, I think it is one of the best colors on a coupe. Totally 70's! The only thing I would change would be to add a touch more gold metallic to it as the color can seem to wash out in certain lighting. Mine is in need of fresh paint, so I'm going to experiment a little with the color.

-Walt
 
Siena

Yeah,
My wife the designer preferred the bumper/spoiler combo versus the naked look. A little less "boy racer" and more elegant. Color is PPG #24078 I like the look with the gold BBS wheels. I wish I could find a set in a larger OD as I have no tire choices with the 14'' The tires I have now are 205/70 and look wrong. I have a set of silver in 15'' but it will cost some $$ to refinish to duplicate the gold. Anyone with some wheels for me? The RCMP has no humor for the sans front plate. Not that I would think of going faster than the posted limit...
100_0318.jpg
 
Pamp,
The work you did looks very nice. Having just found a set of euro bumpers, I'm about to do the same.

I don't suppose you have a photo of the brackets you made to mate the euro front bumper to the US bumper shocks ?

Also, I think someone mentioned that you may have moved/modified the bumper shocks but I cant seem to find those photos.

TIA
 
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