Aftermarket fuel savings device?

[nashvillecat]

A friend of mine with an late 80's 911 has a very well intentioned wife who bought him a "vortexer" whatnot for his car as a Xmas present. http://www.vorteccyclone.com/vorteccyclone.html Since he is rebuilding the engine, he has no immediate need for such a thing and has offered it to me so he can tell his wife with a straight face that he at least tried it.

Buddy and I have both laughed over the adds and wife must have heard us and took our roman a clef discussion seriously. He doesn't have the heart to tell his wife what he really thinks and has offered it to me. It will evidently fit the D-Jetronic's plumbing (between the filter and the throttle plate). I told him that I think it might work better (if at all) if the device was placed aft of the throttle plate since the plate itself would negate any supposed swirling action.

Before I waste my time and indulge my friend's curiosity, do any of you have any experience with this sort of thing and (swallow) do you have anything nice to say about it other than rattlesnake oil?

 

[jhjacobs]

nash,

You don't need that thing! It would re redundant, you've already got Dreikugelwirbelwannenbrennraum!

 

[Malc]

Its a fluid dynamics thing :roll:
It may make a difference with long inlet tracts and with turbo chargers but only a flow bench or rolling road would tell you
Malc
Where's my anorak?

 

[velocewest]

Automobile companies around the world, who employ armies of engineers, and who are under unrelenting pressure to deliver better performance and economy, have somehow overlooked this amazing device. They probably put it on the shelf with the 100 mpg carburetors.

You wanna save gas? Put a block of wood under the rightmost pedal.

 

[nashvillecat]

more on this "amazing" device.

The website has an answer for those doubting Tonys out there.:wink: But it doesn't mention 100 mpg carburettors! (Sites says device only works on FI!):cry: I am no scientist, and as I mentioned before, I think I can swallow the swirling effect, but the throttle plate is in the way and would seem to negate all of the alleged benefits of the device.

I did not make this stuff up!:roll: Enjoy:
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

These are the answers to questions we commonly receive from customers. If your question is not addressed, don’t hesitate to contact us by phone or e-mail.

Q: IF THIS TECHNOLOGY WORKS, WHY DON’T AUTOMAKERS USE IT?
A: They do! Some manufacturers are building swirling fins into their intake manifolds. Vortex technology is being adopted in new, hi-tech offerings from General Motors, Mitsubishi, Infinity, Mercedes Benz and Subaru. Don’t have an extra $50,000 for a new, top-of-the-line car? No Problem. You can get the same effect with the Vortec Cyclone for only $39.95.

Q: HOW DOES IT WORK?
A: The Vortec Cyclone creates a dynamic swirling tornado of air within the combustion chamber. This leads to better fuel atomization and more efficient burning. Read More

Q: HOW MUCH WILL I SAVE / HOW MUCH EXTRA HORSEPOWER CAN I EXPECT?
A: Results vary depending on vehicle type, vehicle age, driving habits and other factors. Users have experienced horsepower gains of up to 35% and up to 31% improvement in fuel efficiency. These results are not typical, however; the average vehicle will get an extra 1-2 MPG and produce an extra 5-12 horsepower. The Vortec Cyclone™ pays for itself very quickly, especially with today’s high gas prices.
Read More about gas savings
Read More about horsepower

Q: WHY SHOULD I BUY A VORTEC CYCLONE?
A: Many satisfied customers like the idea of adding horsepower at a small fraction of the cost of a traditional supercharger or blower. A big benefit these days is the gas savings. With today's much higher gas prices, the unit will pay for itself within a few tankfulls. Others like the idea of both extra horsepower and better mileage with a single device. With our 30-day risk-free guarantee, you have nothing to lose.

Q: WILL IT FIT MY CAR?
A: The Vortec Cyclone adjusts to fit any fuel-injected car, truck, boat or RV with an air hose between 2.5 and 3.75 inches in diameter. There are a few vehicles, (usually full-size trucks or SUVs with V8 engines) that have larger air hoses. We make a special large unit for these applications (same price as the regular unit).

Q: HOW DO I INSTALL IT?
A: Anyone can install the unit in just a few minutes with nothing more than a screwdriver. Complete installation instructions will be included with your unit

Q: WILL IT VOID MY WARRANTY?
A: No; after market parts will not affect your new car warranty. While we cannot make legal representations about any specific manufacturer’s warranty, we have never had a reported case of any problem resulting from the use of the Vortec Cyclone, or any warranty issue.

Q: IS IT GUARANTEED?
A: YES! Try the Vortec Cyclone risk free for 120 days; if you are not completely satisfied, simply return the unit for a full refund of the purchase price, including shipping, with NO restocking fee. The Vortec Cyclone is also guaranteed for the life of your vehicle against manufacturing defects.

Q: WHAT IF MY CAR HAS A CARBURATOR?
A: The Vortec Cyclone is designed for use in fuel injected engines only.

Q: WHAT IF I HAVE AN AFTER MARKET AIR INTAKE?
A: No problem. The Vortec Cyclone will work with all after market air intake units. It also works well with turbocharged or supercharged cars.

Q: CAN I USE MORE THAN ONE VORTEC CYCLONE IN THE SAME VEHICLE?
A: Yes. Installing a second unit will provide marginal performance gains, but will not double the results from the first unit. A third unit will provide no additional gains.

Q: MY CAR HAS TWO AIR INTAKE HOSES; DO I NEED TWO VORTEC CYCLONES?
A: Yes--you need one for each air intake hose. While this configuration is not common, some models of Ford F150 trucks have a split intake hose.

Q: I READ SOMEWHERE ON THE INTERNET THAT THESE PRODUCTS DON’T WORK; WHAT’S THE REAL DEAL?
A: You can find skeptics and negative information about any product. The bottom line is, our tests show that the product works, and independent dyno tests confirm our horsepower gains. We have hundreds of testimonials from satisfied customers, and our return rate is less than 5%. We all use Vortec Cyclones in our personal vehicles.

 

[jhjacobs]

Nashville,

There actually is something to the science; however, as you say, the throttle plate negates the benefits.

The BMW M30 and M20 engines were very revolutionary for their time. Not only are they Hemi's but they have Dreikugelwirbelwannenbrennraumen (triple-ball-swirl-action-combustion-chambers) too. Basically they have a vortex generator built in. If you look at the intake manifolds you will notice they have a large vane running down the top. Inside the combustion chamber the vane continues with a slight turn and down tilt. This is supposed to swirl the air-fuel mixture for more uniform mixing and a more powerful and efficient burn. I seem to remember reading some BMW literature in the 70's talking about how it spun the air-fuel mixture the optimal 13 cycles. Then again, in those days I did things that cause me to question what is and it not a real memory. 8)

The real question in my mind is did the coupes delivered to Australia spin the other direction like their toilets do. :?:

 

[nashvillecat]

vortexing

JHJ:

I was not oblivious to your triple hemispherical design reference (although I thought that was just the name of the dive performed by R. Dangerfield in Atlantic city :wink:

I had friends who were always "quietly" fiddling with manifolds that had "ridging" or "rifling" to improve flow on their 1/4 milers and speedboats. Fluid/flow dynamics seems to be an elastic science of which I know very little. I do know from watching the above, not every pretty enhancement produces positive results. And that seems to be true with intakes and exhausts. I also know that on a rare occasion, a "mistake" turns out to work even though its not supposed to!

I can't recall where I have seen it, (maybe Metric mechanic?) but someone posted pictures of combustion chamber modifications for what may have been an M10 or M30 engine. This included ridges, dimples, and other forms. This layman thinks BMW did a pretty good job, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Otherwise, Alpina, Hardy&Beck etc., would have nothing to do!

BTW, I have been informed that all things are inverted down under in Australia. Aussies just don't know it. I have an Aussie ex pat who tells me this is true, that Ayres rock is just a painting, and when his car breaks down, he cries: "It was the dingo." Because of his proclivity to stress test or destroy things, we refer to him as "Breaker Morant."

 

[velocewest]

Here's an article from CNN on various miracle fuel savers, including the Tornado, which is the same as the Vortec thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/08/07/gas.saving.investigation/index.html

Here's some simple car guy logic -- what is one of the most common actions taken to improve engine performance on an otherwise stock engine? Answer -- port matching and/or porting of the intake. What does this do? It removes restrictions in the air path to allow more air to reach the engine, making the engine a more efficient pump, and therefor producing more power.

What is the Vortec? A restriction in the air path.

The arguments for fluid dynamics are flawed. The way a fluid (air is technically a fluid) flows is affected by turbulence. As a general rule, less turbulence results in a higher flow. Why? Because the molecules in a turbulent fluid are moving in many directions, following a longer path from point A to point B, and creating friction that slows their rate of transfer. Why does still air or still water cool faster than moving air or water? Friction produces heat. And, heat generally induces expansion in fluids, causing less fluid to be contained in a given space.

The other issue at hand is the laminar boundary layer where the fluid flows against a solid surface. The boundary layer is a thin layer of the fluid which slows due to friction with the solid. The drag, or friction of the fluid against itself is less than that of the fluid in contact with the solid, so fluid beyond the boundary layer flows with less friction. This is why some tuners do not polish the inside of the intake tract, encouraging a boundary layer to accumulate on the rough cast surface, allowing the balance of the air to flow more efficiently through the intake tract.

The Vortec causes all the air to be turbulent, destroying the efficiency created by the laminar boundary layer.

With other factors equal, a shorter path will produce less drag between the solid and the fluid, allowing more fluid to flow per time unit, or reducing the energy required to move the fluid. The turbulence created by the Vortec makes the air follow a longer path.

So, let's count it down -- the Vortec restricts the intake path, and produces turbulence which results in heat, friction, and a longer virtual path from point A to Point B. The end result? Less air moved less efficiently.


This is my favorite of their claims -- "The Vortec Cyclone creates a dynamic swirling tornado of air within the combustion chamber." Really? That air, which is going to travel about 2 more feet before it is blasted with a high pressure squirt of gasoline and chopped into little snippets by the intake valves is still going to be swirling away, creating tiny tornadoes in my combustion chambers? Wow, can I get pictures?! :lol:

The people who sell this crap are all adherents of the P.T. Barnum school of human nature. :roll:

 

[Malc]

Humm interesting arguements...
In my first rally car with a 1500cc SOHC engine with fuel injection I polished the inlet tracts and matched all of them for volume. As it was fuel injected I figured you didn't need the roughness because thats kind of traditional for carbs to stop fuel "pooling" and not really mixing in the air flow.
I also recut the valve seats and the backs of the valves again geting the volumes of the ports in the head pretty much matched. The big one was to make sure the gaskets between the tracts and the head were the correct shape and size.
The exhaust ports and 4 into 2 into 1 manifold was stepped to try and use the mythical scavenge effect (Don't know if it worked)
Balanced the pistons/crank/flywheel/clutch assemblies, added a high lift cam and went from 75 to 113BHP
Not bad even if I say it myself!
Malc

 

[nashvillecat]

fluid dynamics follow up?

I read Tony's post with much interest and at the risk of putting my foot in my mouth, have a couple of follow up questions.

It is commonly understood that the dimples on a golf ball allow it to travel further/faster through the air as opposed to a smooth golf ball. I also understand teflon is very slippery. If I were able to machine my intake runners full of golf ball dimples and/or coat the runners with teflon, would it theoretically improve the intake air flow so as to provide a more efficient delivery system?

Also, on one of those infomercials for the product in question, there is a demonstration of water being transferred between soda bottles. IF you havent seen it, two bottles (2 liter style?) are placed one on top of each other (sort of like an hour glass). The point of the demonstration is that when water is permitted to transfer from the upper bottle to the lower one, it glugs and the flow is apparently impeded by the air being displaced through the ever present bottlenecks. If the water or containers are swirled, the water flows faster. Its the swirling feature that they are highlighting. I could be wrong on this, but the idea is if you insert a small inverse "stationary" propeller so that the water is directed, even though it is an obstruction, it speeds flow. Am I wrong in my attempt to accept this display or is there a false premise in that there is a reverse flow of air.

You don't have to bother responding to these questions, but I have always wondered. In fact, this was one of the things my buddy and I have found terribly entertaining!

Please note that the above referenced FAQ does not discourage you from using two devices but three do not offer any advantage: Q: CAN I USE MORE THAN ONE VORTEC CYCLONE IN THE SAME VEHICLE?
A: Yes. Installing a second unit will provide marginal performance gains, but will not double the results from the first unit. A third unit will provide no additional gains.

Thanks for your patience!

 

[jhjacobs]

velocewest - what do you make of the BMW M20 /M30 design? It is clearly attempting a vortex and BMW has even promoted it as such. The Vortec thing is clearly crap but is the BMW rifling crap too? The article you reference has really burst my bubble on the fuel magnets. I could swear they help my 85 Nissan truck! However, I am using the magnets to keep the body parts from falling off rather than to align the fuel molecules.

Now I'm going to clearly need to reconsider my Doppelzweikreisbremsanlage too!

 

[nashvillecat]

dimples

In response to my own post I discovered the following"half baked food for thought: :lol:

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Dimpled_20car

It answers all and none of my questions :roll:

 

[velocewest]

JJ,
It's common practice for combustion chambers to be shaped to move the charge in a particular way to maximize the mix or to present the mix to the spark plug in a way that improves combustion.

I like your idea about using the magnets to hold on parts. Unfortunately for me, the car that sheds parts -- the Rover -- is mostly aluminum, so the bloody magnets don't work!

 

[velocewest]

Nash,
I can't find the infomercial, but I'd like to see it. Do you recall, were one or both of the bottles intact? In other words, did the water flowing into the bottom bottle have to displace air to get in there? If so, that is the simple reason that swirling the water makes it flow better -- it opens a path for the air to flow out so the water can flow in. If there's an alternate path for the air, the water will flow without swirling or bubbling.

The dimples on a golf ball are there to create a stable laminar boundary, which lets the ball carry farther through the air.

Here's another miracle fuel saver debunking article --

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1802932.html?page=1

 

[bengal taiga]

fuel "savings" device?

I believe the water bottle twister was part of the Tornado informercial. Maybe it is available on youtube or the like. It is very entertaining, especially the nun (without the habit) who endorses the product for her motor home. :roll:

 

[jhjacobs]

I like your idea about using the magnets to hold on parts. Unfortunately for me, the car that sheds parts -- the Rover -- is mostly aluminum, so the bloody magnets don't work!

Bummer. I guess that pretty nuch rules out the magetic sun roof for your rover. :cry:

I wonder if magnets could have a placebo effect on vehicles. I swear my trunk runs better; maybe it the the tune up I did at the same time. 8)

http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/health/magnets/index.html

 

[nashvillecat]

coupe-related fuel savings device theory

To beat a dead horse, specifically Tony’s equine, look at the small infomercial in this link:

http://www.tornadofuel-saver.com/?gclid=CM-4rNDO5JACFQcmgwodbHHfWQ

There is a remnant of the “two bottle” demonstration and other compelling endorsements. In case you miss it, notice that there appears to be a not-so-subtle biblical (new testament) endorsement too.

After watching this presentation, I am thinking about installing my friend’s device “in my tail pipe” since it will vacuum out the exhaust and perhaps offer some jet assist! :lol: