hplug
Well-Known Member
Has anyone upgraded their a/c system and if so what did you use. Thanks,
H
H
Air conditioning upgrade
- Thread starter hplug
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x_atlas0
Well-Known Member
Thehackmechanic should help us out with this one, I remember talking on the phone about it with him.
Most people seem to upgrade the compressor to a Sanden-style, rather than the original York style, as the Sanden is both more thermally efficient and requires less power overall than the York. I haven't read of any upgraded blower motors or improved cores available, which would really improve the system. My coupe doesn't have AC, but based on the oh-so-vivid tales of my folk's summer treks during the 70s, the AC systems of the period could be likened to a chain-smoking asthmatic mouse blowing on you, in terms of throughput.
Most people seem to upgrade the compressor to a Sanden-style, rather than the original York style, as the Sanden is both more thermally efficient and requires less power overall than the York. I haven't read of any upgraded blower motors or improved cores available, which would really improve the system. My coupe doesn't have AC, but based on the oh-so-vivid tales of my folk's summer treks during the 70s, the AC systems of the period could be likened to a chain-smoking asthmatic mouse blowing on you, in terms of throughput.
jmackro
Well-Known Member
Don't knock it until you've tried it! I believed that too, but when I brought my coupe to Euro Tech in Mission Viejo (949 768 4055) for service a few years ago, and suggested installing a rotary compressor, the proprietor, Tim Aguinaga said "nah, I can make it work just fine with the existing York". I was skeptical, but Tim was right - my A/C now works quite well.
I still may switch to a Sanden someday, as the York does vibrate, and it does rob power from my little 2.8L engine. But the sucker cools!
My biggest gripe with the e9 A/C system is that the only cold air outlet is right above the shifter - the air doesn't get distributed well. So, your right hand and right knee are frostbitten, while the rest of you is just sort of cool.
I dumped my York a few years ago. The new rotary style compressor is 1/2 the weight and size. I bought a remanufactured one for $300+. It should be one to fit an e30 or e28 (there may be others). You will need a mounting bracket from the same vintage car. Make sure to compare the mounting ears with the bracket fittings. The AC shop will have to make up some new hoses to fit the different fittings sizes and locations. If you have the York setup you can eliminate the vibration damper can (it is one of the two black cans by the distributor). One less hose and more room.
thehackmechanic
Well-Known Member
a/c "upgrade"
As x_atlas0 referred to below, I retrofitted a/c into my CSi many years ago. I went with a Sanden rotary compressor, used the biggest condenser core I could physically stuff into the nose of the car, had a special three-row evaporator core fabricated that fit inside the original evaporator housing, and used R134a. The guy who I bought the stuff from (Bob Poggi at ICE a/c) also rebuilt the squirrel cages (the evaporator fan) so the fan blows nice and strong. It all worked out well, and the car certainly gets cold enough, and it made sense for a from-scratch installation to use R134a, but if your car uses R12 (Freon), I'd think carefully before ditching it. I spoke with Carl Nelson about this many years ago, and he says that he uses the original evaporator and condenser, fixes whatever else is wrong, and gets them blowing very cold. In the Northeast, where it doesn't get all that stinking hot for all that long, it is difficult to find anyone who works with Freon, but in hot climates, particularly those with a lot of classic cars, it shouldn't be a problem.
The original poster did not say what kind of upgrades he was looking for, or if his system is currently functioning at all. The big take-away message with a/c is that if your car has it but it hasn't been working for many years, changing it from R12 to R134a isn't a magic wand that will fix leaking hoses and contaminated orifices. If it isn't working, there's a reason, usually more than one, and that has to be diagnosed and repaired before doing anything else.
As x_atlas0 referred to below, I retrofitted a/c into my CSi many years ago. I went with a Sanden rotary compressor, used the biggest condenser core I could physically stuff into the nose of the car, had a special three-row evaporator core fabricated that fit inside the original evaporator housing, and used R134a. The guy who I bought the stuff from (Bob Poggi at ICE a/c) also rebuilt the squirrel cages (the evaporator fan) so the fan blows nice and strong. It all worked out well, and the car certainly gets cold enough, and it made sense for a from-scratch installation to use R134a, but if your car uses R12 (Freon), I'd think carefully before ditching it. I spoke with Carl Nelson about this many years ago, and he says that he uses the original evaporator and condenser, fixes whatever else is wrong, and gets them blowing very cold. In the Northeast, where it doesn't get all that stinking hot for all that long, it is difficult to find anyone who works with Freon, but in hot climates, particularly those with a lot of classic cars, it shouldn't be a problem.
The original poster did not say what kind of upgrades he was looking for, or if his system is currently functioning at all. The big take-away message with a/c is that if your car has it but it hasn't been working for many years, changing it from R12 to R134a isn't a magic wand that will fix leaking hoses and contaminated orifices. If it isn't working, there's a reason, usually more than one, and that has to be diagnosed and repaired before doing anything else.
A/C Upgrade
You can buy an upgrade kit for a 1979 e12. It comes as a compressor (Seltec rotary) and an adapter kit, the price is closer $5 or $600.00 now. That's what I used on my car, you will need to have a couple of hoses made. I still have a bunch of R12 so that's what I went back with when I charged the system. I also replaced the factory condenser fan with a 11" Spal brand fan.
The e9 makes an excellent greenhouse as you know so it's not like a newer car with vents all over but it greatly improves the comfort level.
You can buy an upgrade kit for a 1979 e12. It comes as a compressor (Seltec rotary) and an adapter kit, the price is closer $5 or $600.00 now. That's what I used on my car, you will need to have a couple of hoses made. I still have a bunch of R12 so that's what I went back with when I charged the system. I also replaced the factory condenser fan with a 11" Spal brand fan.
The e9 makes an excellent greenhouse as you know so it's not like a newer car with vents all over but it greatly improves the comfort level.
Hi!
I also had questions about the AC on this forum earlier, but it has been difficult to get answers. AC is a very specialised subject area for ordinary weekend mechanics like some of us are. I wonder if anyone who has installed a new compressor, evaporator, condenser, dehumidifier, could take a look at the equipment or invoices to see which brand and part number it is. This had been a great help. Especially for us who have to order parts online.
In my case I am looking for R134a equipment.
Henrik
I also had questions about the AC on this forum earlier, but it has been difficult to get answers. AC is a very specialised subject area for ordinary weekend mechanics like some of us are. I wonder if anyone who has installed a new compressor, evaporator, condenser, dehumidifier, could take a look at the equipment or invoices to see which brand and part number it is. This had been a great help. Especially for us who have to order parts online.
In my case I am looking for R134a equipment.
Henrik
Bump..I would also appreciate which model # rotary compressors will fit an E9 and brackets needed, thanks.
dtortoise9
Well-Known Member
compressor
I used a Sanden 508 plus the largest parallel condenser that I could fit. Cools great- even with 134A.
I used a Sanden 508 plus the largest parallel condenser that I could fit. Cools great- even with 134A.
m_thompson
Well-Known Member
Any suggestions for getting new hoses? The original red hoses look nice, but are leaking.
thehackmechanic
Well-Known Member
Regarding hoses, try to find a specialty shop that makes hoses on the spot. I see you're in RI. I'm in MA. Since it just doesn't get all that hot up in this part of the country, specialty shops like this can be much harder to find than in, say, Phoenix. But that way they can crimp on one end, cut the hose longer than it needs to be, take the hose out to the car, put it in place, cut it to length, then crimp on the other end.
Regarding the compressor bracket, it's not the same bracket as on the old Yorkie. I did mine 12 years ago and forget where I got it from, but it's the same bracket for the Sanden for any M30 engine.
Be aware there are different versions of the Sanden 508 for R12 (Freon) and R134 that have different charging fittings. Also be aware that some versions DO NOT HAVE THE CHARGING FITTINGS ON THE COMPRESSOR AT ALL. If that is the case, the charging fittings have to be spliced into the hoses.
Regarding the compressor bracket, it's not the same bracket as on the old Yorkie. I did mine 12 years ago and forget where I got it from, but it's the same bracket for the Sanden for any M30 engine.
Be aware there are different versions of the Sanden 508 for R12 (Freon) and R134 that have different charging fittings. Also be aware that some versions DO NOT HAVE THE CHARGING FITTINGS ON THE COMPRESSOR AT ALL. If that is the case, the charging fittings have to be spliced into the hoses.
Adapter bracket
No.
Sandens/ other rotary alternates have mounting ears/ tabs that are offset from the factory setup which is a direct bolt to the side of the compressor. An adapter plate is needed and the OEM block mounting plate part that bolts to the block. Otherwise, there are custom mounts fabed of plate that's bent to shape to fit the block.( S Curved assembly with plate that bolts to compressor ears.)
No.
Sandens/ other rotary alternates have mounting ears/ tabs that are offset from the factory setup which is a direct bolt to the side of the compressor. An adapter plate is needed and the OEM block mounting plate part that bolts to the block. Otherwise, there are custom mounts fabed of plate that's bent to shape to fit the block.( S Curved assembly with plate that bolts to compressor ears.)
thehackmechanic
Well-Known Member
Bracket
Yes, what 61porsche said is my experience as well. I didn't mean to make it sound that any other bracket from any other M30 car would fit. What I meant was that my understanding is that you use the same bracket to put the Sanden 508 on any M30, and that this is a different bracket from that used to hold the York.
Yes, what 61porsche said is my experience as well. I didn't mean to make it sound that any other bracket from any other M30 car would fit. What I meant was that my understanding is that you use the same bracket to put the Sanden 508 on any M30, and that this is a different bracket from that used to hold the York.
New Hoses
You can have new hoses made without any problem but red might be tough to find, most are black. If you replace the compressor now's the time to do it.
Doug
You can have new hoses made without any problem but red might be tough to find, most are black. If you replace the compressor now's the time to do it.
Doug
m_thompson
Well-Known Member
I would like to keep the York because it worked OK. I will be refilling the system with R12, but I will get the new lined hoses that work with R134a.
A/C hoses
FYI- Many of the hoses are available/ shown as OEM from sources such as Maximillian. If just replacing one or so and going back with R12 it might be a quick solution. One would have to ask about the red covering though.
New hose design integrates the steel braid used to reinforce the hose in between the rubber layers and yes a red rubber is available/ listed to the trade or recently was.
A change to 134 or other blended gas, would likely mean the hose connections be changed as 134 uses O ring type connections vs. original copper washers. When early changes came into effect there were once teflon washers used in connections of which contact with 134 disentigrated them; resulting in what was called " black death" a slimy mess that looked like crude oil. Not a problem reported much these days as the O ring composition changed to a better compatible material.
FYI- Many of the hoses are available/ shown as OEM from sources such as Maximillian. If just replacing one or so and going back with R12 it might be a quick solution. One would have to ask about the red covering though.
New hose design integrates the steel braid used to reinforce the hose in between the rubber layers and yes a red rubber is available/ listed to the trade or recently was.
A change to 134 or other blended gas, would likely mean the hose connections be changed as 134 uses O ring type connections vs. original copper washers. When early changes came into effect there were once teflon washers used in connections of which contact with 134 disentigrated them; resulting in what was called " black death" a slimy mess that looked like crude oil. Not a problem reported much these days as the O ring composition changed to a better compatible material.
m_thompson
Well-Known Member
Maximillian has all of the hoses but one listed at reasonable prices. Realoem lists the hoses as "ended" so I wonder if the hoses are are new? I was concerned that they might be 40 year old NOS and not be much better than the ones that I have.
Maximillian has new copper seals, except for the 20mm diameter ones. I wonder if it would work OK if I anealed the old copper seals and reused them?
Walloth and Nesch list the seal rings, but no hoses.
OEM Hoses
I would not be concerned to use them on my car; but I lean towards original or easily put back. The test is : will it hold a vacumn for an extended period? 45min is what a shop would do; overnight with a guage is best.
Heat, pressure, and vibration are the reason for hose failure.( Usually the steel braid)
Seals should be available through specialty a/c distributors and online local and in the states. It wasn't until 134 came into being that things changed.
If you just can't sleep at night and I understand that logic- Autozone also lists the replacement hoses; but they refer to them by location - upper, lower, etc. But as others pointed out, local shops/ parts houses just make them up on the spot. Just bring them your old ones for comparison since thier looking for hose I.D.
I would not be concerned to use them on my car; but I lean towards original or easily put back. The test is : will it hold a vacumn for an extended period? 45min is what a shop would do; overnight with a guage is best.
Heat, pressure, and vibration are the reason for hose failure.( Usually the steel braid)
Seals should be available through specialty a/c distributors and online local and in the states. It wasn't until 134 came into being that things changed.
If you just can't sleep at night and I understand that logic- Autozone also lists the replacement hoses; but they refer to them by location - upper, lower, etc. But as others pointed out, local shops/ parts houses just make them up on the spot. Just bring them your old ones for comparison since thier looking for hose I.D.