I removed one of my rear seats this morning only to find a mouse nest residual from the winter. As I cleaned it out I notice pasted to the floor board what looks like sheets of asbestos. Is that the case? If it is, I have a mess on my hands. I used a small flat shovel to get the bulk of loose stuff out, but there's a lot of small loose pieces remaining. I have a shop vac and an OSHA approved respirator. If this is asbestos, what can I do to seal it in place?
Asbestos under rear seat? ('73 3.0CS)
- Thread starter ES 1800
- Start date
Don't know the material but it is the same stuff that's under your carpets and was used on all BMWs of that era. Some people use dry ice to freeze it and then knock it out.
If it's the same as the product in my early 635, it is basically tar paper. Whether asbestos was used in it's manufacture is an unknown. Mine came out in solid sheets with a scraper. i didn't wear a mask and did not suffer any after affects. I also used a torch to get some of it loose. I replaced it with modern tar paper, as I wanted everything original in the car, but there are modern sound deadeners available. If you Google "sound deadeners", you will find alternatives
Wow scary. A relevant thread at:
http://forums.aaca.org/f169/asbestos-old-cars-251218.html
http://forums.aaca.org/f169/asbestos-old-cars-251218.html
jmackro
Well-Known Member
I also doubt that e9's contain asbestos as an interior sound-deadening material. #1, the health hazards of asbestos were understood by the early 1970's. #2, the stuff is great as a heat insulator, but there are better/cheaper materials for sound deadening.
Bert: I'm glad to hear that you didn't suffer any after affects, but then you wouldn't. Asbestos isn't a poison - it creates an irritation in your lung tissue that leads to cancer after 20 years or so (OK, this description may not be 100% accurate, but the point is that exposure to asbestos doesn't hurt you right away).
blumax
(deceased)
Asbestos FEARS exaggerated??
By our bloated and over-ractive Bureaucracy--it keeps them employed in their cushy and over-paid jobs without accountability for their actions. Example--the Pandemic fears that were recently spawned, loudly proclaimed and wildly exaggerated by another branch of our B's.
Whenever a perceived problem is declared as unsafe long enough and loud enough--e.g., blood, sharps, R-12, asbestos, acylic enamel, etc--people begin to believe that all of these products are literally a poison to us or our environment that must now be outlawed and then removed with special handling in a manner similar to disposal of nuclear waste.
Given enough time and repetition of their stories trial lawyers will sense blood in the water and pile on to rape, pillage and burn usually at the expense of the few real victims and others that they can persuade/coerce to be "sick" at the expense of the public who always pay for these over-reactions.
My personal experiences with asbestos would frighten most today!
In my teens when working for our local Natural Gas Company I used a saber saw to cut and fit John Mansville asbestos cement piping used for flues--without use of a mask or respirator and ate my lunch on the worksite without washing hands--no water. Then as a young 23-26 year old Naval Officer spent three years in very close proximity to tons of asbestos that was widely used for insulation of all air ducting and all types of piping aboard one of the last Cleveland Class Light Cruisers of WWll--the USS Manchester CL-83--called the "Fightenship" during the Korean War--On my engineering watches I stood directly below the high pressure steam line that was heavily wrapped in asbestos cement--every where. Now 81 and soon to be 82--had finally given up smoking in 1986--yet have no respiratory residuals from my careless youth.
Does this prove anything--NO--but sometimes we have to keep things in reasonable perspective and question that the "sky may not be falling" as hard as our B's will declare and have you believe every time a member of same "discovers" another risk or potential hazard at hand!!
By our bloated and over-ractive Bureaucracy--it keeps them employed in their cushy and over-paid jobs without accountability for their actions. Example--the Pandemic fears that were recently spawned, loudly proclaimed and wildly exaggerated by another branch of our B's.
Whenever a perceived problem is declared as unsafe long enough and loud enough--e.g., blood, sharps, R-12, asbestos, acylic enamel, etc--people begin to believe that all of these products are literally a poison to us or our environment that must now be outlawed and then removed with special handling in a manner similar to disposal of nuclear waste.
Given enough time and repetition of their stories trial lawyers will sense blood in the water and pile on to rape, pillage and burn usually at the expense of the few real victims and others that they can persuade/coerce to be "sick" at the expense of the public who always pay for these over-reactions.
My personal experiences with asbestos would frighten most today!
In my teens when working for our local Natural Gas Company I used a saber saw to cut and fit John Mansville asbestos cement piping used for flues--without use of a mask or respirator and ate my lunch on the worksite without washing hands--no water. Then as a young 23-26 year old Naval Officer spent three years in very close proximity to tons of asbestos that was widely used for insulation of all air ducting and all types of piping aboard one of the last Cleveland Class Light Cruisers of WWll--the USS Manchester CL-83--called the "Fightenship" during the Korean War--On my engineering watches I stood directly below the high pressure steam line that was heavily wrapped in asbestos cement--every where. Now 81 and soon to be 82--had finally given up smoking in 1986--yet have no respiratory residuals from my careless youth.
Does this prove anything--NO--but sometimes we have to keep things in reasonable perspective and question that the "sky may not be falling" as hard as our B's will declare and have you believe every time a member of same "discovers" another risk or potential hazard at hand!!
Murray,
You may very well be one of the fortunate few who lived so closely with asbestos and are still around.
You may very well be one of the fortunate few who lived so closely with asbestos and are still around.
Coupe Sound insulation
As someone who also has experience with evaluating environmental hazards, consultants, and remediation prior to and after sales of commercial properties, the material we're discussing does NOT exhibit the qualities of asbestos. In place and when removed, it does not display as fiberous or "friable".
Taken in the context of what coupe materials were used in hood insulation, bulkhead, Tertroseal (used between the fenders, etc.), and Tectyl it would be logical to assume BMW specified and used petroleum based products. Tectyl is still marketed today by Valvoline. (And corresponding solvent to remove)
Other period German Manufacturers, such as Porsche, called the material Androplass which was used in the engine compartment, floor, etc. and had a distinct pressed pattern which has long ago gone the way of the dinosaur when oil prices then in 73 doubled and tripled and certain material production became expensive . BMW to my knowledge and research doesn't call out the material name.
I don't agree that the material is hazardous.
I do suggest that as with any cleanup that reasonable precautions be used to clean up when restoring and refurbishing. If you're really personally concerned, don't use a dry shop vac. Moisten, wet, remove, and dispose of carefully.
Hope this sheds some light on the subject.
Best regards,
Jerry
61Porsche
P.S. The last production cars that I'm aware of that did use asbestos were mid 60's British. ( Healy) It did not have the same characteristics as sound proofing.
As someone who also has experience with evaluating environmental hazards, consultants, and remediation prior to and after sales of commercial properties, the material we're discussing does NOT exhibit the qualities of asbestos. In place and when removed, it does not display as fiberous or "friable".
Taken in the context of what coupe materials were used in hood insulation, bulkhead, Tertroseal (used between the fenders, etc.), and Tectyl it would be logical to assume BMW specified and used petroleum based products. Tectyl is still marketed today by Valvoline. (And corresponding solvent to remove)
Other period German Manufacturers, such as Porsche, called the material Androplass which was used in the engine compartment, floor, etc. and had a distinct pressed pattern which has long ago gone the way of the dinosaur when oil prices then in 73 doubled and tripled and certain material production became expensive . BMW to my knowledge and research doesn't call out the material name.
I don't agree that the material is hazardous.
I do suggest that as with any cleanup that reasonable precautions be used to clean up when restoring and refurbishing. If you're really personally concerned, don't use a dry shop vac. Moisten, wet, remove, and dispose of carefully.
Hope this sheds some light on the subject.
Best regards,
Jerry
61Porsche
P.S. The last production cars that I'm aware of that did use asbestos were mid 60's British. ( Healy) It did not have the same characteristics as sound proofing.
The fears over asbestos are exaggerated insofar as the likelihood of developing asbestosis or cancer (mesothelioma) following exposure is low; however should such disease develop it is 99% the result of exposure to asbestos.
The reason lawyers are so excited about asbestos cases (and more importantly why juries award so much in damages in such cases) is because for years the industry knew about the dangers and covered it up, going to great lengths to keep the risks a secret from customers and the public. It is actually very disturbing to read the internal reports from the 20's and 30's where the big manufacturers elected to conceal the known risks from the public.
How do I know this - I used to represent asbestos suppliers and end user companies who were sued by injured employees and customers in my prior life as a defense attorney. Lots of phony cases. Also plenty of real ones where the injuries were legitimate and the cause linked directly to asbestos.
The reason lawyers are so excited about asbestos cases (and more importantly why juries award so much in damages in such cases) is because for years the industry knew about the dangers and covered it up, going to great lengths to keep the risks a secret from customers and the public. It is actually very disturbing to read the internal reports from the 20's and 30's where the big manufacturers elected to conceal the known risks from the public.
How do I know this - I used to represent asbestos suppliers and end user companies who were sued by injured employees and customers in my prior life as a defense attorney. Lots of phony cases. Also plenty of real ones where the injuries were legitimate and the cause linked directly to asbestos.
I'm guessing you are really lucky, Murray. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here given the direct causal links between asbestos exposure, smoking and mesothelioma. It is bad stuff though, and should be treated appropriately when found.
Honolulu
Well-Known Member
The link to the Antique Auto Club thread is useful, particularly the info posted by Mark DeFloria.
As a EPA and STate of Hawaii licensed Asbestos Project Designer, I've written asbestos abatement specifications for 15 years. The key points are to identify the material, and if removed, wet it thoroughly, remove it intact to the extent possible, have a fan or breeze blowing any possible dust away from you, and use a NIOSH-approved (not OSHA, they don't approve respirators as one poster suggested) respirator, with HEPA-rated filter cartridges.
2x on Murray's survival, particularly in light of his smoking, which has a nasty synergistic effect in combination with asbestos.
Latency periods for asbestos-related diseases (asbestosis, lung cancer, mesothelioma) range from 10 to 30-plus years. Odd thing is that although the first two have a well-defined dose-response relationship, you can get mesothelioma from only a single exposure, 40 years later. Murray may get it yet!
We get calls from persons who ought to know better than to disturb products like popcorn ceilings, usually after they've made a real mess. I tell them to take a little bit and crush it between their fingers, then snort it through a straw just like cocaine, and call me in 20 years if they're sick. NOT! Then I suggest the poor man's assessment: hold a little bit in a pair of tweezers and put a lighter flame to it. If the fibers curl and burn, not likely asbestos. If the fibers sit there and glow, you may have a problem. Testing by Polarized Light Microscopy is about 20 bucks per specimen.
Asbestos was used for thermal insulation, electrical insulation, and as a thickener to products that otherwise flowed too easily. There were thousands of products which used it; most are gone. The friable form (can be crushed to powder by hand pressure) is most dangerous because it most easily becomes airborne fibers. Nonfriable forms (9"x9" floor tile is very frequently asbestos-containing) are less likely to produce respirable asbestos.
As a EPA and STate of Hawaii licensed Asbestos Project Designer, I've written asbestos abatement specifications for 15 years. The key points are to identify the material, and if removed, wet it thoroughly, remove it intact to the extent possible, have a fan or breeze blowing any possible dust away from you, and use a NIOSH-approved (not OSHA, they don't approve respirators as one poster suggested) respirator, with HEPA-rated filter cartridges.
2x on Murray's survival, particularly in light of his smoking, which has a nasty synergistic effect in combination with asbestos.
Latency periods for asbestos-related diseases (asbestosis, lung cancer, mesothelioma) range from 10 to 30-plus years. Odd thing is that although the first two have a well-defined dose-response relationship, you can get mesothelioma from only a single exposure, 40 years later. Murray may get it yet!
We get calls from persons who ought to know better than to disturb products like popcorn ceilings, usually after they've made a real mess. I tell them to take a little bit and crush it between their fingers, then snort it through a straw just like cocaine, and call me in 20 years if they're sick. NOT! Then I suggest the poor man's assessment: hold a little bit in a pair of tweezers and put a lighter flame to it. If the fibers curl and burn, not likely asbestos. If the fibers sit there and glow, you may have a problem. Testing by Polarized Light Microscopy is about 20 bucks per specimen.
Asbestos was used for thermal insulation, electrical insulation, and as a thickener to products that otherwise flowed too easily. There were thousands of products which used it; most are gone. The friable form (can be crushed to powder by hand pressure) is most dangerous because it most easily becomes airborne fibers. Nonfriable forms (9"x9" floor tile is very frequently asbestos-containing) are less likely to produce respirable asbestos.