Car Sale-AS IS Sale, Legal Question

[wasatch]

Here's a super fun one. Hoping for some insight:

Three weeks ago I sold my 1970 Mercedes 280SL. I had an exhaustive description of the car, long, detailed, etc. I listed all known faults that I was aware of. I had it on Ebay with several bids on it on day two of the auction. An extremely high-end classic car dealer in Southern California called frantically and wanted to buy it immediately. His intention was to buy it, fix it a bit, and surely list it at his showroom for 70-80% more than what he paid. I had a photo bucket gallery with 70 images, including 4-5 shots of the undercarriage/frame. In my written description I noted, "I see no signs of rust...but this is my eye and not yours and I encourage third-party inspections...this is an AS IS sale with no implied or expressed warranty."

Bottom line: He bought the car. Had it shipped to California. Took it to his shop, he says $8K of rust repair is found in the footwell area, passenger and driver. (There's no exterior body rust). He is now threatening to sue me for 'misrepresentation' for not disclosing rust underneath, UNLESS I give him money back towards paying for the rust repair. (in which case he'd surely still proceed in trying to flip the car for double what he paid).

I didn't even know that rust where he starting digging. I'm not a 280SL expert. I'm not playing naive, which is why I encouraged inspections, etc.

Does anyone know legal ramifications with this? I signed a Bill of Sale that said it is an AS IS sale with no warranty. He paid, received the car and title, etc. I'm in Utah, he's in California.

I don't have time to deal with BS, but I feel it is his fault for not inspecting the car thoroughly. I had 70 detailed photos posted, and if he saw anything odd, it seems his onus, not mine. I am willing to hire a lawyer to fight him, as he is threatening me non-stop if I don't pay him a yet to be disclosed fee for the rust repair.

Can anyone offer legal insight? This is such a hassle/pain, especially coming from a high-end dealer selling $700K cars on his website. He should know better. Our sale price was $34K. He should have had the car inspected, etc. My gut is if he attacks legally to fight him out of principal, which I am inclined to do.

My terms and conditions are posted below, per my original ad:


Transaction Details:
• Standard Ebay. Sold in 'As Is' condition. I have described the car to the best of my ability, and have tried to mark every 'fault' I can see or know of, and basing off of what my Mercedes mechanic told me on his inspection in 2011, inclusive of all the maintenance I've done, and with the previous restoration work done, both to body, interior, and mechanicals--I've described all to my best knowledge, including all 'known faults/items to address'.
• Buyer inspections welcome. This is an 'AS IS' sale. No warranty or returns. You can have confidence in the level to which I described the car, but it's my eye and interpretation, not yours. Hopefully the photos, history, and 'items to address/ignore' help.
• Ask all your questions in detail now, not after the auction.
• $500 non-refundable deposit due on auction closing.
• Remaining balance after deposit is due by certified check or wire transfer within 7-days of auction close.
• A clear Utah title will be delivered to you.
• I will meet you or your shipper to ensure a safe and secure hand-off/loading of the vehicle. I'd prefer you choose reputable company to keep her safe in transit.
• All of the above applies to both domestic and foreign buyers.
• I reserve the right to end the auction early, even if bidding exists.

 

[dang]

Sounds like the dealer may operate like that on purpose... Wants to buy without going through ebay, obviously deals in cars and knows their problems and trys to dump it on you. Seems pretty one-sided to me. I would make him take legal action before anything else. If it went down like you said it did I don't think you have much to worry about.

 

[Stevehose]

+1

Sounds like the dealer may operate like that on purpose... Wants to buy without going through ebay, obviously deals in cars and knows their problems and trys to dump it on gou. Seems pretty one-sided to me. I would make him take legal action before anything else. If it went down like you said it did I don't tgink you have much to worry about.

 

[E911]

+2

If he deals in classic cars he already knows what to expect and factors in for the unexpected... pretty sure he'd have to take action in Utah and that would hardly be worth it.

Call his bluff and tell him you'll take it back- he pays the shipping back and you'll refund his money if the car is "exactly" as you shipped it to him.

 

[Nicad]

If he deals in classic cars he already knows what to expect and factors in for the unexpected... pretty sure he'd have to take action in Utah and that would hardly be worth it.

Call his bluff and tell him you'll take it back- he pays the shipping back and you'll refund his money if the car is "exactly" as you shipped it to him.

Add the Ebay fees in as well.

 

[Ed G]

Sounds like the dealer may operate like that on purpose... Wants to buy without going through ebay, obviously deals in cars and knows their problems and trys to dump it on you. Seems pretty one-sided to me. I would make him take legal action before anything else. If it went down like you said it did I don't think you have much to worry about.

Ditto that. He probably does this to most any car he can. If he gets 10% of his sellers to poney up, then he considers that a success. Strictly business, cold and hard. I'd tell him to pack sand.

Bet he's got a partner in crime lawyer to send a letter by plugging your name and address into a template.

 

[jmackro]

He probably does this to most any car he can. If he gets 10% of his sellers to poney up, then he considers that a success. Strictly business, cold and hard. I'd tell him to pack sand.

I think Ed G is on the right track here. I'll bet this guy "finds" rust in some obscure corner of every car he buys. It just sounds like a scam - saying the rust was in some area like the footwell that isn't shown in the ebay photos. From my experience, when a car has significant rust (like $8,000 worth) it isn't concentrated in only one place - if your 280SL's floor was that damaged, you would also have rust in more visible areas.

I worked in real estate here in California long enough to learn that there are people who just work this way. Many of them are from different cultures - places where this sort of scheme is normal, and both sides not only understand the game but enjoy playing it. To beat him, you are going to have to adopt some of his tactics. I'm no lawyer, but my recommendation would be to: a) research your position with a local lawyer (your auto or home insurer may be able to help you here), b) determine what protection comes with selling through ebay, and c) do not respond to his communication until you have the advice of a pro. You might even contact John Draneas, the attorney who writes a monthly column in "Sports Car Market" that deals with issues like this - he has probably covered this topic in a prior article.

Don't let it get to you - the scammer is counting on your not finding this game "fun", and just paying some $$ to make it go away.

 

[CookeD]

If you're not a dealer, tell him to go pound it.

The court will only hold you responsible as an "expert" if you derive your primary income in the buying and selling of cars and/or operate as a dealer. Only an expert can be held accountable for misrepresentation such as this if that was indeed the case; otherwise, it's always buyer-beware.

Start practicing-- Every response could be "I don't know" from here on out, because it sounds like that's how this person is coming after you.

Best of luck!

Edit: Just my $.02, and no, I'm not a lawyer. I think you're being scammed, so just watch yourself.

 

[craterface]

I would offer to take the car back, provided he buys you a plane ticket to come and get it so you can verify that it is in the same condition as when he bought it. He won't bite and I would just ignore all communication from him in the future.

This sounds like a shakedown, pure and simple.

Who is the dealer, for the benefit of the rest of us?

Scott

 

[61porsche]

The transaction

was closed. An as is sale in Utah is legal. There is no recourse. Utah does have a law of misrepresentaion based on a five step qualification. It appears from what's been stated that it is unlikely that the situation merits those requirements.

In some states, new cars are offered with a three day right of recission. Used cars are not.( In Utah)

Your bill of sale would be your proof. All other verbal statements however construed by either party is immaterial.

Contrary to the sage advice of offering to take the car back under some condition, I would not do so.

The buyer has informed you that there is a new condition ( real or not) of which you were not aware but are so now. You would have to disclose that condition ( or it's repair) if you took the car back and if a sale was involved.

 

[wasatch]

Hi All-

Lot's of sage advice here. I thank you all. I've spoken with three lawyers today--whoa (two are friends, one is my corporate attorney), and the consensus from my two friends is to let him peruse me at his own foolish risk. My corporate attorney, whom I consider a legal genius (he is), has a few nuances that I'll share in a bit/or once this is decided--stuff that hasn't been mentioned. I've decided to retain my corporate attorney immediately for this case, and when the buyer contacts me next to try to shake me down, I will simply request that he directs all correspondences to my attorney. I'm a bit unwilling to post the buyer's/dealer's business here at the moment (if there are any possible legal repercussions of doing so, but I'll happily share this information when I'm in the clear. Amazing that someone with a business that he has and with its prominence would do something like this. He must be fuming with anger and embarrassment at doing this for a "living" and making a poor decision. Or, as many of you allude, and which I believe too: this ain't the first time he has done this. You don't buy a house without a house inspection and then sue the seller when you find out there are issues, similar in many ways. The whole thing is absurd. My digestions over the weekend are that the return of the car scenario, which several of you suggested, is a situation that I'm not keen on for hassle factors, not to mention the fact that I leave Utah this week for three months (as I do every summer). And, I would now need to disclose the information that I've learned, which would make a second sale worse. The rust is a good lesson for all of us here. As a seller, I truly wasn't aware of it, thus reinforcing what we all know: have your car's inspected and don't buy on emotion. I bought this car on emotion, and never knew or dealt or cared about the frame, just the exterior and interior. It was/is a beautiful car.

This legal battle could escalate quickly. I'll certainly give you all a complete run-down/summary when the coast is clear, and share the dealer information...His bullying has angered me so much that for once I'm excited for a legal battle. I can't believe I'm even saying that, but bring it on. As Gen. Omar Bradley once said, "In war there is no prize for the runner-up..."

We shall see...

A final comment: A current E9 member selling his coupe in NJ has a very well written disclaimer at the bottom of his listing. I would recommend anyone selling a car to copy his wording/format closely. There are bits in there that I/we often leave off on any auto bill of sale, and should be replicated...His coupe is beautiful, I'm sure super solid, but for any auto sold, he's has a solid disclaimer. There may be similar stock Bills that can be found on the internet, which is far smarter than the types I've always done: a 3-4 sentence quick write-up. .02 cents on selling a lawnmower through a car...

Thanks all, I'll update this soon...

 

[OCCoupe]

As is where is

I am a salesperson for a very hi end franchised auto dealership in California.

1st. California does recognize "as-is" as a no warranty no guarantee representation.

2nd. You made no guarantees of rust or lack there of.

3rd. You offered/suggested a 3rd. party inspection, they declined.

4th. The dealer did what is recognized as a wholesale purchase, that puts them in the position of buyer beware as wholesale means NO WARRANTY.

If you were aware and he could prove that you were aware of rust he may have a case if he asked you specifically of any rust issues; but he would have the burden of proving that you knew and that you knowingly did not disclose.

Short story is that he is screwed and you should tell him that if he continues to harass and threaten you that you will file a complaint with the California DMV.

You sold the car legally and in good faith time to move on.

 

[hans3]

You might even contact John Draneas, the attorney who writes a monthly column in "Sports Car Market" that deals with issues like this - he has probably covered this topic in a prior article.

Don't let it get to you - the scammer is counting on your not finding this game "fun", and just paying some $$ to make it go away.

Called this attorney once for an unrelated classic car legal issue. I guess my issue wasn't significant enough to satisfy his $$$ greed because I could never get him to return my calls. And I was willing to pay for the legal advice--no freebies.

That said, a signed bill of sale with the as-is / no warranty implied clause is sufficient to protect you. Threaten to countersue him for fraud and contract breach.

 

[wasatch]

The play-by-play is he's now explained as of yesterday that The $8000 rust repair to the chassis is the full repair, and for his purposes and hassle he only wants to do a $2300 rust repair. He's effectively lowered himself to small claims court level.

My response:

Contact my attorney. He is waiting to hear from you.

My attorney is fully apprised on all details, including some of the wisdom of folks on here.

Again, truly amazing that this guy is even doing this stuff given his apparent 'stature'.

I'll keep everyone updated, but hopefully this thread can serve others in the future to avoid such tangles...

Cheers