CO2 emissions g/km?

[Willem Tell]

Hi Folks,
I may relocate my E9, and the target country imposes import taxes based on engine ccm and g/km. I've searched everywhere, and while this is a common modern spec, I don't find a reference for '70s motors. Does anybody have a spec for g/km for a 3.0 CSi M30 motor?

 

[JFENG]

Can you use the original fuel
Consumption specification and convert knowing every gallon of gasoline creates about 8,887 grams of CO2 when burned?

Example - 20mpg means 277gm/km

 

[Ohmess]

Was not able to find anything for the e9 M30, but I did find some data for a 76-79 US e24 630, with an M30b30 in it:

BMW E24 6 Series 630 CS (1976 - 1979) Dimensions, Performance, Specification | eCarSpec

If you are searching for BMW E24 6 Series 630 CS specification, Reviews, photos, and other information then you are in the right place. We are going to discuss BMW E24 6 Series 630 CS Engine Technical Data, Fuel Consumption (Economy), Emissions and Range. We will also discuss BMW E24 6 Series...

ecarspec.com

Note that the data here indicates that CO2 is estimated, and their reported information is very close to bfeng's estimate. Likely uses the same approach.

As an aside, I have long thought that a far more effective (and workable) mechanism to address vehicle emissions would be to measure vehicle emissions and impose a progressive tax on the measured emissions. Forget if the cats are there or if the vehicle is throwing a code or whatever; instead set a tax rate that provides an incentive for everyone to have their car tuned right before measurement.

 

[Willem Tell]

Thanks both!
I had been told it was expensive to import into Portugal, but apparently they have the most punitive import tax in Europe.
Based on the 2986ccm and 277g/km, the tax simulation from Switzerland (non-EU) - it's unbelievable:

Non-EU country
Age indifferent, does not include car price	52824.32€ cm3 9509.16€ CO2 20941.51€ ISV 30450.67€ Rates 4000.00€ VAT IVA 17123.65€	52955.16€ +130.84€ cm3 9552.08€ CO2 21004.96€ ISV 30557.04€ Rates 4000.00€ VAT IVA 17148.12€

I need to research further, bit this pretty much eliminates the possibility of moving the car!

 

[JFENG]

Was not able to find anything for the e9 M30, but I did find some data for a 76-79 US e24 630, with an M30b30 in it:

BMW E24 6 Series 630 CS (1976 - 1979) Dimensions, Performance, Specification | eCarSpec

If you are searching for BMW E24 6 Series 630 CS specification, Reviews, photos, and other information then you are in the right place. We are going to discuss BMW E24 6 Series 630 CS Engine Technical Data, Fuel Consumption (Economy), Emissions and Range. We will also discuss BMW E24 6 Series...

ecarspec.com

Note that the data here indicates that CO2 is estimated, and their reported information is very close to bfeng's estimate. Likely uses the same approach.

As an aside, I have long thought that a far more effective (and workable) mechanism to address vehicle emissions would be to measure vehicle emissions and impose a progressive tax on the measured emissions. Forget if the cats are there or if the vehicle is throwing a code or whatever; instead set a tax rate that provides an incentive for everyone to have their car tuned right before measurement.

Maybe somewhat similar but less cumbersome is adding a emissions component tax on the fuel itself.

Not as good as your suggestion of a measurement based emissions tax.

Would you exempt old timers which are unable to run clean regardless of tuning?

 

[Willem Tell]

I can tell you that where I live in Switzerland, the inspections are extremely rigorous. While they do exempt the CO2 emissions on vehicles older than 1976(?) , everything else is enforced to the extreme. So much as one drop of oil or coolant leaking from a gasket, and it's rejected. Brakes, suspension, lights, etc., are tested as with a new car. No modification allowed if they were not in the original sales brochure for the period (and each Marque car has an expert that knows his stuff). I can't even swap my 13"tires on my Tii or 14" on my E9 if I want to.
I am reaching out to the CPAA (The Club Portuguese Of Old Cars) to see if they can guide me to an expert importer that may know of exemptions.

 

[JFENG]

Sorry to see the trouble you are facing with this in Europe

 

[Arde]

To me it is completely demoralizing to be subject to such European rigor and then see the scale and impact of what VW Audi did. Justice delayed is justice denied.

The documents, first reported earlier this month by German broadcaster Bayerische Rundfunk and the Handelsblatt newspaper, show that Audi managers and engineers in the Bavarian city of Ingolstadt were just as willing as their counterparts at Volkswagen in Wolfsburg to cheat in pursuit of the company’s goal of becoming the largest carmaker in the world — perhaps even more so.

“We won’t make it without a few dirty tricks,” an employee in Audi’s diesel motor development department wrote in an email to colleagues in January 2008, summarizing road tests that confirmed diesel models couldn’t meet emissions standards. Audi managers and engineers bluntly discussed what was in effect a criminal conspiracy, using terms like “defeat device” or “cycle beating” that clearly connote illegal attempts to defeat the testing procedures used by regulators.

‘A Few Dirty Tricks’: Documents Show Audi’s Role in the Volkswagen Emissions Scandal (Published 2019)

The carmaker’s luxury unit was more deeply involved in cheating pollution rules than previously known.

www.nytimes.com

 

[JFENG]

a few dirty tricks

Are you supporting or arguing against the case of holding classic cars like the E9 to stringent emissions levels and taxing the heck out of them because they are dirty?

Personally, I am willing to pay a higher per-mile driven ‘environmental’ fee because my old cars pollute more my modern cars.

However I am against any extra tax based on the value of the car or it’s base emissions level (eg not weighted by the number of miles driven).

And going way off topic, I also believe that it should be illegal in the USA to tamper with the emissions system of any car built after 1990 unless the tampering results in lower emissions than the original system. I think it’s selfish and socially irresponsible for owners of 10 year old BMW twin turbo diesels to remove their catalysis, urea injection and DPF systems.

 

[Arde]

I am venting against using a heavy hand on individuals while large scale corruption takes place. Each country and locale should decide how to balance what they value and how to incentivize it. A factory emissions scam is immoral, it deprives locales from exercising that freedom. Corrective and punitive action against such crap should not take 12 years.

It just reminds me of Ronald Reagan's:
The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

End of rant.

 

[Ohmess]

Willem -- those taxes are outrageous. I suspect you don't see many older cars in your town.

Arde - VW has been punished to some extent; they have paid roughly $33 billion in fines and settlements. These financial costs are important; if we merely jail the executives and engineers, the shareholders would obtain financial benefits and get off scott-free.

 

[x_atlas0]

CO2 calculations were part of my old job at FCA, so I may be able to shed some light.

The official US method, as bfeng mentioned, is to use the combined unadjusted (meaning, not label) fuel economy based on the EPA75 and EPA HWY test cycles. (assuming you aren't using the 5-cycle label or 3-cycle label calculations due to Litmus restrictions) (8887/(unadjusted combined mpg))=g/mi There's a formula that is applied that converts the dyno-tested fuel economy into the label fuel economy, hence why I mentioned 'unadjusted'. (for the US people, if you want to know more, the EPA shows all the raw data on their website)

That said, the EU used to use the WLTP and NEDC cycle, and those tests were not around in their current form when the coupes were made. There should be some sort of old car exemption or rule to get around this, as otherwise they would have to re-test the older cars with the new cycle to generate new consumption numbers. You generally can't just convert fuel consumption numbers between cycles because cars behave non-linearly on drive cycles.

Looking here:
https://www.acm.gov.pt/widget/-/com...-de-tributacao-do-imposto-sobre-veiculos-is-1

I see this line which seems important for your situation:

• Document the effective measurement of the level of carbon dioxide emissions by legally authorized technical center, where this element is not included in the respective certificate of conformity.

Note: CO2 emissions of used vehicles, resulting in an effective measurement for legally authorized service center, whose CO2 value below the constant oldest certificate of conformity of the vehicle of the same make, model and version, or in the case of this not on the available information, a similar vehicle, are not deductible for tax purposes, prevailing the value of the certificate.

This also seems relevant:
https://www.portugalresident.com/co2-emissions-tax/

If you really want to know what you will get, you can get it tested. Without knowing the cycles used to generate a consumption number, and making sure those same cycles are what the law is using, there's no way to tell, aside from testing. (or using a calibrated, forward iterating model with coastdown curves, engine maps, and efficiency maps for the trans, diff, and tires)

Alternatively, if you bring it in as a classic car, you may be able to avoid the whole thing:
https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/portugal/transport/vehicle-ownership/classic-cars

A classic vehicle may be imported into Portugal tax-free provided:

• The vehicle is for private use only
• The registered owner of the vehicle is imported from another EU country where they have been resident for at least 185 days
• The vehicle has been used by its registered owner in their former country for at least six months
• DGV Certificate of Compliance Form Model 9 has been filled out and submitted to the DGV confirming the vehicle has undergone an inspection
• The owner has submitted a copy of passport, driver's licence, residency (or application), tax details and number and at least three years' original tax returns
• A certificate of cancellation of residence issued by the person's consulate

 

[Willem Tell]

Thanks for the great detail x_atlas0. I read those pages. #2 is key:

• The registered owner of the vehicle is imported from another EU country where they have been resident for at least 185 days

If I were importing the car from Germany, France, Spain, even Romania or Bulgaria, or any EU country, I would enjoy an 80% discount on the formulae, and it would be around €12,800 to import my Turkis Unicorn. Switzerland has not submitted to all EU trade rules that the EU has sought to impose, so they do not enjoy this discount.
That said, and now I'm off topic, but having become a Swiss citizen, I actively vote against every referendum where Swiss legislators seek to make their own lives easier by acceding to EU pressure on every level for trade and personal freedoms. Euro trade zone, great for Germany, everybody else, not so much. EU/Brussels unelected bully overseers, not so much. If the price of Swiss independence from the EU causes me to miss my E9 in Portugal, I'll accept that cost.

I received confirmation from several authoritative sources that the import duty on the E9 would likely be on the order of €25,000. So I'm investigating how many months a year I can keep it there on Swiss plates.
The importer specialist confirmed that my 1972 MBS 280SE 4.5L V8 with 4500ccm and let's say 800g/km at 11 miles/gallon would cost... drum roll please.... €106,000 !!!!

 

[Arde]

Those importation costs are ridiculous. If they correspond to environmental costs or even incentives they should be reciprocal, namely the amount you have to pay the receiving country should equal a refund from the country you are taking the car out...
But then again what can I expect when policy is driven by unelected teenagers like Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg...

 

[Drew20]

Those importation costs are ridiculous. If they correspond to environmental costs or even incentives they should be reciprocal, namely the amount you have to pay the receiving country should equal a refund from the country you are taking the car out...
But then again what can I expect when policy is driven by unelected teenagers like Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg...

What the chuff has Greta Thunberg got to do with Portuguese policies on importing cars?!

I sympathise with Willem's dilemma, but I think the issue is not the EU bureaucracy making up arbitrary rules here, more the lack of reciprocal arrangements between Portuguese and Swiss governments. I don't know the ins and outs of the democracies in either Switzerland and Portugal, but I think their governments are democratically elected.

All of that said, these importation costs are indeed ridiculous! Perhaps it is a case of our classics being inadvertently caught by rules intended to catch wealthy super car owners?

In the UK our road tax cost is in part determined by CO2 emissions, however Alpina, as a low volume manufacturer, has been exempt from this until relatively recently. So my 4.8 litre B10 and my 5.7 litre B12 are taxed the same as any old Ford Fiesta! Again, rules made for the majority of cars don't always work as intended in some situations with 'unusual' cars.

Willem, I don't suppose you could leave your E9 registered in Switzerland and take in on an extended 'holiday' to Portugal? You could drive it to Spain once in a while if there are time restrictions for holidays? Or is this 'tax' solely based on your residence status?

 

[Ohmess]

Those taxes are not designed to raise revenue. They are designed to prevent the importation of older cars.

 

[Willem Tell]

Willem, I don't suppose you could leave your E9 registered in Switzerland and take in on an extended 'holiday' to Portugal? You could drive it to Spain once in a while if there are time restrictions for holidays? Or is this 'tax' solely based on your residence status?

My thinking as well Drew. The Spanish border and Badajoz are just 30 minutes away. I will investigate whether I can find a dry garage there, perhaps a dealer's garage, where I can put it away as required. That means sorting out the Swiss insurance, but again, worth investigating.
These rules were created to address earlier practices whereby Portuguese would buy used cars in Europe and import them, thereby avoiding much of the local PT tax. Now the pendulum has swung wide, and caught the oldtimers in the process.

 

[Arde]

Greta's angle was sarcasm. I am jealous I was nobody at age 17 (and still am). I wish I had Tintin as my middle name. Life is unfair.
Her latest dispensation is that she gets to support candidates in the US elections, which is bad form for any foreign public figure, but oh well, she can do no wrong.

To me the carbon footprint of US classics is a non-issue. They are a tiny fraction of the quarter billion US car fleet, they are used very little, and they are disappearing...
California still sends me offers to crush my 1972 E9 in exchange for 500 dollars every coupe of years...

Parking the car outside Portugal and driving it with Swiss plates would be a great idea, and actually fun. Open one and name the service Valet Luso...

What the chuff has Greta Thunberg got to do with Portuguese policies on importing cars?!

I sympathise with Willem's dilemma, but I think the issue is not the EU bureaucracy making up arbitrary rules here, more the lack of reciprocal arrangements between Portuguese and Swiss governments. I don't know the ins and outs of the democracies in either Switzerland and Portugal, but I think their governments are democratically elected.

All of that said, these importation costs are indeed ridiculous! Perhaps it is a case of our classics being inadvertently caught by rules intended to catch wealthy super car owners?

In the UK our road tax cost is in part determined by CO2 emissions, however Alpina, as a low volume manufacturer, has been exempt from this until relatively recently. So my 4.8 litre B10 and my 5.7 litre B12 are taxed the same as any old Ford Fiesta! Again, rules made for the majority of cars don't always work as intended in some situations with 'unusual' cars.

Willem, I don't suppose you could leave your E9 registered in Switzerland and take in on an extended 'holiday' to Portugal? You could drive it to Spain once in a while if there are time restrictions for holidays? Or is this 'tax' solely based on your residence status?

 

[x_atlas0]

Yeah, not to make you upset, but my annual tax in Michigan is based on the vehicle weight at this point. It's around 30.00 USD.

I have to concur, the laws seem to have been written to strongly discourage classic car ownership, especially newer than 1970. It does seem like it would be of marginal utility in reducing CO2, but I can understand the mechanism if the desire is to move everything to newer small displacement, low power vehicles. Classic cars are just a casualty. My guess is they want to keep older (but still serviceable) regular cheap cars out of the country. Quite a few other countries have similar taxation systems, such as Japan and Singapore.

Interestingly, if you converted it to an EV, you could ask for a direct CO2 measurement and avoid the tax, assuming I am reading it correctly. (since the CO2 would be zero)

 

[Arde]

Good point.
Japan's case is more interesting as a source for used cars than a destination. Some destinations do not care about emissions...
I was watching the series Homeland and the reference to Toyota Hilux = hostile was intriguing.

No, Toyota is not supplying ISIS with Pickup Trucks

Scrounging, looting terrorists are just driving the most popular trucks in the Middle East

www.popularmechanics.com

My guess is they want to keep older (but still serviceable) regular cheap cars out of the country. Quite a few other countries have similar taxation systems, such as Japan and Singapore.