Copper (reusable) head gaskets?

[bengal taiga]

The reusable head bolt post caused me to recall once being offered a copper head gasket for considerably more expense than 2 or 3 stock elring/goetze gaskets. It was argued they were better since they transferred heat better than the stock gaskets and were "blow out" proof since they allegedly didn't develop hot spots- especially between "bored out" cylinders. The other big advantage was that they were/are supposedly "reusable" after a little annealing.

Anyone here use all copper head gaskets? Truth to the advantages? Recommendations?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Malc]

The heat transfer thing is a load of boll*cks IMHO!
Remember your dealing with a big lump of Aluminium sitting on an even bigger lump of cast iron with a thin wedge of copper in between

However all metal gaskets can stand higher bore pressures and thus tend not to fail between cylinders that are close together. THey are most often used in "race" engines, I use them on the Lancia engine in the stage rally car due to the high compression and boost pressures used.

Land rover diesel engines use copper/composite/copper gaskets because if this.
Vintage cars often used all copper gaskets, but I would never reuse one. In the big scheme of things gaskets are cheap relative to the amount of time and trouble tearing an engine apart and building is again.
Sorry I'll stop ranting now
Malc

 

[jhjacobs]

Rant! You call that ranting? This is a proper rant:

I first encountered a copper head gasket in a '31 Rolls I was rebuilding. I demanded that the owner buy a new one and he refused. He insisted that it was fine. I seem to recall that at the time I taking a metallurgy class and doing creep tests on copper. If memory serves it has large grains which will compress one time and then get brittle. I was convinced his gasket was shot from being compressed once much like the compressible metal O-ring seals on oil plugs. Then again, as I say, I was in college at the time and my brain suffered considerable abuse at that time as it has since that time so I may be all wet on this.

I do remember clearly that the cheap SOB who owned the Rolls only paid me $500 for the job which I did at his house over the course of a year (at least 200 hours) with him watching every move. This is probably my fault because we didn't set a fee up front - I figured I'd ask him to pay what he though the work was worth when I completed the job. I also remember I did the job because he left plain water in the system and let it freeze and break his block. It was a great car but the owner was a real Dilbert!

So, I would not reuse a copper head gasket any more than I would reuse a crush ring (oops, I've done that frequently). Actually I think that since copper is relatively soft it should be okay but I would worry about it not conforming well to small irregularities in the block and head. I have had some milled heads come back which, in my opinion, were pretty rough.

 

[bengal taiga]

Has anyone "o"ringed their block or head?

On the subject of head gaskets, has anyone "o"ringed their M30 block or head? I am familiar with the process, but have never seen fit to try it on the M30. I have considered it as an alternative to using the "cutting" ring gaskets recommended for use in the 02Tii. I also noticed it being mentioned in conjunction with "reusable" copper gaskets.

I am not endorsing the procedure or the use of copper gaskets. Rather, I am just keeping an open mind.:idea:



FWIW, here is an excerpt from a copper head gasket retailer:

"Benefits of Copper Head Gaskets:

1. Conductivity. Copper is the standard by which all other conductors are measured, therefore a copper gasket provides superior thermal conductivity, acting to stabilize head and block temperatures which makes tuning easier.

2. 25% coefficient of elasticity. One of the properties of copper is that it stretches before a catastrophic failure, thereby providing an extra measure of safety in case of severe detonation.

3. Strength. Copper (in the form we use) has a tensile strength of approximately 32,000 psi, compare this to the 1,200 to 1800 psi tensile of most facing materials used on conventional performance head gaskets."

http://www.scegaskets.com/techtips/benefitsof.html

Another site Ferriday Engineering
( http://www.ferriday.co.uk/copper/copper.shtml ) mentions the use of a solid aluminium gasket for a cosworth engine.

 

[Malc]

What's "O-ringing" a head or block? I have never heard the term before.
Ta
MAlc

 

[bengal taiga]

"O-ringing"

Its pretty intuitive. In short, a groove is cut (usually by machine shop) around the cylinder or combustion chamber and a wire “ring”is inserted in the groove. This tends to “lock” the head gasket in place and insure against combustion leaks.

I am not saying this is necessary on the M30 engines.

As you know, the Tii/turbo 02 head gasket has a cutting ring that eats into the cylinder head for a better seal. It is also far more expensive that the carburetor-version head gasket. Problem is the gouge made by the ring. By “O-ringing” the 02 block, you may use the non-cutting ring gasket and avoid the expense and gouge associated with the cutting ring gasket. Theoretically, the cylinder head does not need to be milled as much because there is no gouge to remove. I used this procedure on a high compression American V-8, but only because the engine was over-bored and machinist suggested it to avoid what he described as “certain” head gasket failure.

Here is an article on the subject. There are a probably a lot of similar articles available on the net. I was reminded of the process when I noticed it being recommended on a few of the “copper gasket” sites.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0307pon_ringing/index.htm