CSL asking prices are climber higher and higher

CSL Bat prices

Hi All,

Great forum, I have really enjoyed all the knowledge some of you fine people have thought to share, especially the starter of this thread. Wow! what an E9 historian, Henric, thank you, I for one have seriously appreciated your posts.

On the subject of CSL Batmobile prices, while I agree roughly US$210k for 2275477 looks high, allowing for a little discounting dealing with a dealer, I do not think it is too massively out of place. I stand to be shot down on that statement, so i better back it up:-)

I think we all agree E9s are great, and yes, some better than others. Like it or not, CSLs are rare and are now getting perceived as such in the collector world, then we separate out the Batmobiles (167)and early Carb CSLs (169)(is there a reason those two numbers are so close?) and you have extremely rare versions of a beautiful sports coupe, with fantastic history on the track. Add to this the dearth of 70s cars one could lay similar claims about for anywhere near this money.

I have tried following the Batmobile prices over the last few years and 4-5 years ago was the last one I saw at anywhere near $100k, the white car in Japan 2275514. Since then the market has continued to strengthen, with some ebbs and flows, but definitely on an upwards trajectory.

The $218,400 paid for at the BMW Museum for 4355046 seemed high at the time for a really great car, I understand it was not totally perfect and color change, but it was pretty special.

Then the Hans Stuck car 4355031- again not perfect, but nice name to have in the history - was about US$175k at the time

I also understand the Black Series two car in California with 46,000 miles sold for just about $200k last summer - I dont have vin, maybe somebody else has.

Then we have the Taiga Green Series two car 4355049 which sold for $160k a couple of years ago in Monterey and then has just been sold again, dont know price achieved but it was advertised at around $200k in the UK.

4355044 I have not heard the condition, maybe somebody else does, sold for 95k Euros in early 2010, so about $130k at the time.

There was two in the Munich sale last year, the Blue one 4355028, which was better than the Silver one 2275478, there did not seem to be many buyers there and I understood both did not sell.

The one at RM last august 2275441 which sold for $160k was just an ok car (just my opinion) with an incorrect engine.

There was also one sold by a German dealer recently 2275449; this dealer usually only deals in high end classics so this was not normal stock for him, I understand that only had 36,000 kilometers.

I love all E9s, but I have to believe the early Carb CSLs will be the ones we are all kicking ourselves for not snatching up in the future. Would love to know how many are left, but I am guessing that's like trying to guess how long a pice of string is.

So yes, absolutely, it is amongst the highest price, but depending on condition, how much paperwork to justify mileage and originality, it is not unreasonable.

I am sure many will disagree, but these are just my thoughts.

Nash
 
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A disenting opinon

I think the highest price paid for the rarest and best CSL's is going up. That's true across the collector car market for cars in the best condition or with particularly desirable histories.

However, nearly the entire market is also seeing continued softness for cars outside the best or the rarest.

Over the last year, a number of "nice" CSL's that are not bat's and not storied race cars have sold in the $50k to $90k range. A number of fixer-uppers have sold in the $20k and up range. TJ's very nice CSL has been on the market for quite a while at around $100k. Yes, I realize Terry's golf CSL on ebay went for $60K, but one poorly bought CSL does not a market trend make.

RM just sent me an invite for Monaco where they're selling a very nice, but unrestored LHD CSL with good history for a top estimate of less than $65k and no reserve. RM is usually pretty honest with their condition reports and is known to stand behind those reports when things don't turn out like they should. CSL buyers take note... this could be a good buy for someone.

The guys I know at RM and Bonhams say the market for the non-special CSL's is holding steady from below $20k up to around $100k depending on condition, LHD/RHD, etc.
 
agreeing with Bfeng

Hi Bfeng,

I absolutely agree with you on only the best cars making top dollar and that it is consistent throughout the collector market. Certainly the prices you mention achieved for nice CSLs and rough ones are within the range and while we are starting to see some CSLs advertised for six figures (US $$$), the prices achieved are no doubt slightly different. I did hear, although I cant confirm that Exotic Classics in NY sold two for just about six figures in dollars last year.

That said, it is extremely hard to find a great CSL (or any E9 for that matter) and I am guessing most of the great ones are in very knowledgeable E9 owners hands and the premium over ordinary cars is not enough to break them free, unless finances, age or space becomes an issue. There is an owner locally who has a few really nice CSLs and he will not even entertain a thought of selling.

My comments below were about BATs and even mediocre Bats are now making significant sums, they seem to be in that area where a broader spectrum of collectors want one and while the best will still get the top $$$, the ordinary cars are still making good sums.

On to the car Henric was kind enough to forward to us. It seems the car is in NJ and is being advertised by a dealer, while actually being sold by another dealer for a customer who has it on consignment (hopefully everybody has stayed with me here:-). It seems the owners knowledge of E9s is not that extensive and he has based his price on the factory BAT 4355046 and allowing for time, thinks his car must be up there. I cant comment on mileage or condition, what I can say is I was told it does not have much paperwork and the owner thinks its all original (including wheels??) besides one repaint......I dont think I need to comment further on that one and I wish the gentleman well with his asking price??

One thing I have not seen in a very long while, is a non "city package" CSL sell, by that I am talking about a CSL that does not have "city package" features and does have many of the "carb cars" lightweight features.
Would love to hear about a sale if anybody knows of one?

Nash
 
Here's a non-city-package car that sold last fall

Bonham's Munich Auction last October:
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19638/lot/171/

An early 'lightweight' with plexi rear windows, thinner steel, etc.
Numbers matching car
74km (less than 50kmiles)
Very nice interior (perfect dash, perfect seats), engine bay was pristine with no signs of older/botched rust repairs.

Sold for around 75k Euro, or about 100k USD.
And of course, this had the cachet of being sold at the factory-based auction, which probably helps values.

If this early, lightweight is one of the more desirable variants, what do you think market value is for the more commonly seen city-package CSL's with non-matching engine/trans (typical 3.5/5spd upgrade) and tired interiors?

John
 
Strong for batmobiles, stagnant for the other CSL's

Well, that's my opinion based on attending numerous auctions around the world where CSL's were available/sold, and from shopping around for one for the last year.
 
Carb car

Hi John,

I did know of this car and I actually know who bought it, it sits in a big private US collection now, the gentleman who purchased it could not believe his good luck and thought he got an outstanding deal.

As you say, it is a really great early carb car, in my humble opinion worth as much as a BAT, but thats just my opinion.

I understand from people at the auction in Munich that this car was the bargain of the sale, certainly the best CSL at the auction and I think it has been well publicized that there were no buyers there, hence the reason the gentleman was able to purchase such a deal.

Were you at the sale? If you were looking, this certainly sounded like the one to buy.

So, with the greatest respect, one screaming deal for a lucky soul does not make a market, as much as one excessive sale does not mean every car is worth more.

I was more looking for comparisons of standard (as much as any car was standard) LHD CSLs (ie 2275 cars) with the lightweight features. As we all know all 2285 cars were City Package, so never had the "ultra" lightweight features.

I am afraid I wouldn't be a good judge what a standard CSL with a different power-train and tired interior is worth? There are just to many imponderables.

Regards

Nash
 
I believe Nash is correct- the "ultralight" was a bargain at that price. The Bats are flashy but the early lightweight cars are jewels... On the modified CSLs, unlike other E9s, once a CSL is "upgraded" it looses a lot of value so accurate comparison become nearly impossible.

It will be interesting to see where the CSL values go in general and if they start to keep pace with other marquees and models but so far I would say the carb'd CSLs have been laggers. Getting them (carb'd cars) to even be recognized as a unique sub-category in non-E9 circles is in it's infancy. My experience is that most European car nuts don't even know that there was a very small batch of "prove the concept" cars made and how few are actually left.

Hagerty's Online Valuation Tool now breaks them out and clears up some of the confusion with the categories so there should at least be a place to track general trends for those who don't follow auctions or know of private transactions.

Fun stuff to speculate on but a lot more fun to drive!
 
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Will CSL's follow the footsteps of other rare cars?

One thing is for sure. If CSL's follow in the footsteps of other classics like Alloy XK120's, early 911's, Gullwings, etc. then things like numbers-matching and restoration of original parts over replacement with repro parts will become more and more important.

Today, it's easy enough to just cut off and replace a rusty CSL front fender with a new piece from BMW. But, if CSL prices are to go up, collectors need to consider biting the bullet and fixing those old fenders (the right way). Also those 3.5l conversions that make the CSL's more fun to drive will become major detractors from desirability and value unless the original drivetrain still accompanies the car.

John
 
CSL pictures

Hi Gianni,

There are pictures on the first link Henric sent, hopefully they work for you.

Thanks

Nash
 
Hi Gianni,

My apologies, the car in question was 2275477. I have corrected it in my early message.

Hope I didn't cause to much confusion:oops:

Best

Nash
 
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