CSL Price

hdavis

hdavis

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I have been toying with the idea of looking for a CSL for some time now, but I'm having difficulty figuring out the current market.

How much would a very good car (condition 2), not concourse, but an excellent driver that basically needs nothing be worth?

Thanks
 
Purely a guess, but I'd say in the $45,000 to $70,00 region. It is only worth buying one that does need need structural surgery. When I see what Execmalibu bought for about $16K (Colorado Pumpkin) I scratch my head why anyone would shell out the extra for the CSL. I don't get postage stamps or coin collecting either.
Hopefully a CSL expert will chime in.
 
Nicad... Nobody understands why things are collectible!

Why is a Painting by one guy worth $40,000,000 and a similar painting only $35? Remember it is only paint and canvas...

Baseball Cards, Coins, Watches, Cars... Why are shiny rocks (Gold, Diamonds, Rubies) expensive?? Nothing makes any sense

Hell ebay a Billion Dollar company started only 14 years ago because some people who were into collecting those plastic PEZ Candy dispensers got together an auction site...
 
A good series 2 will be $70-$100k. A Bat will be 2-3 times that. A series 1 will probably be a bit more than a series 2.
 
wsk said:
A good series 2 will be $70-$100k. A Bat will be 2-3 times that. A series 1 will probably be a bit more than a series 2.
Click to expand...

Forgot to mention, RHD will be less (and there were no RHD Bats).
 
execmalibu said:
Why is a Painting by one guy worth $40,000,000 and a similar painting only $35? Remember it is only paint and canvas...

Baseball Cards, Coins, Watches, Cars... Why are shiny rocks (Gold, Diamonds, Rubies) expensive?? Nothing makes any sense

Hell ebay a Billion Dollar company started only 14 years ago because some people who were into collecting those plastic PEZ Candy dispensers got together an auction site...
Click to expand...

True, but other than the Scheel seats (Which I hope to get for mine someday) I am not that turned on by thin gauge metal and a few alloy panels. I do have an appreciation for the design and engineering of special older cars and a weakness for original paint though. As for paintings, I'd certainly rather have a few nice cars and many (Say 30) Ski Chalets all over the world than that hideous painting called the Scream.

A solid CSL is probably a good investment compared to something like a fancy Mustang or Dodge Charger. Probably still undervalued than the Porsches you compare them to.

Good luck with the search HDavis.
 
Check the auctions- this is an international market, not just North America.. Series 2, in excellent, but not true concours, condition and which needs nothing: $75- $120k. And slowly appreciating.

My opinion, and everyone has one.
 
Thanks. In my view there are 2 reasons to shell out the $50 - $70 K"upgrade" premium between a cs and a csl. (At least that is what -based on the opinions stated by some of you above, I believe the change should cost me):

1.- Performance. I have never driven a csl, but if the performance difference is really there (like a 911S vs a 911RS, which the cs and cal get compared with), that would be part of the reason to "upgrade".

2.- The other one is investment grade. I do believe that csls have more appreciation potential than a regular cs or csi. And even though that is not why we purchase cars, it certainly rationalizes the expenditure (by transforming it into an investment).

Just my 2c........
 
If you're considering and can afford a nice lightweight then you should buy one... otherwise you'll just end up cycling through one or two non-lightweights on your way to your final destination (not that there's anything wrong with that path).

The first 169 are "jewel" like in there simplicity... you can definitely feel it in the way they drive.
 
CSL prices

Thread from earlier in the year
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11319

I agree with the people who come down on the side of individuality and exclusivity. Its just the way of the world, like art ( described below) or many many cars, certain porsches, a great example is series one E type 4.2 against a series two 4.2 (lights and a few other bits changed, certainly less than from CS to CSL) and often 50% or more less cost for equivalent car. How about those muscle car differences for maybe just a carb or two?

All E9s are great looking cars, but the very limited numbers of the best of breed mean supply and demand kicks in when the big money collectors come into the game.

As always, they will fight over the best of the best and to steal from E911 - the original 169 are "jewels" and if you add up how many were changed into race cars ( look at vin numbers of any of those Schnitzer or Alpina cars from early 70s) and how many have been genuinely lost, the early carb cars seem "solid" to me as an investment.
 
Nash, Henry... A car as an INVESTMENT? Impossible and Absolutely will NEVER Work!

According to a bunch of very learned people I have spoken to who profess to know about everything... They ALL insist that Cars are for driving and are NOT and NEVER will be a good investment!

I must admit that because I am stuck with garages filled with OLD CARS that I totally agree with their position:wink:.

For example I bought a bunch of Cars a while back and "IF" I could find someone as STUPID as I was and that person would offer to pay me close to what I have invested in some of these Worthless "OLD CARS" I would be very happy...

Here is a list of a few of the worthless OLD CARS and how buried I am in each one...

1. 1974 Dino Spyder (Original Paint) ..... $24,000 invested
2. 1962 Porsche Twin Grille Roadster ..... $6,500 invested
3. 1957 Porsche Speedster.... $20,000 invested.
4. 1973 911S Targa.... $13,500 invested
5. 1971 Mercedes 280SL $12,500 invested

At the time I was also incorrectly advised to invest more of my hard earned money into buying rare options for these junky OLD CARS... And like a total moron I listened and bought lots of stupid stuff for those OLD CARS like Rudge Knock Off Wheels, Nardi Steering Wheels, Sport Seats and other CARRERA parts8-)...

Can you imagine how foolish I feel? If I had only listened and invested ALL my Money in GM stock or with Bernie Madoff as they had advised me to do I would be in a much better position don't you think? Hell at least I would never have had to pay any Capital Gains taxes...

Here is my plan...Lose ALL your money and pay NO taxes thats how to beat those Bastards!

If any of you guys know any really foolish people with money they want to lose on some OLD CARS please send them my way...
 

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Henry you are spot on! The Cs are dead in the water but the CSL are very collectible

Henry, I have been whining for a couple of years that the 3.0CS seem to be absolutely dead in the water investment wise...

And with eight E9s currently offered for sale and not selling this is still true...

But the Lightweight cars are still pretty strong and the big boys will pay all the money for the right CSL!

Good luck in your search...

Oh yeah... My son is in Doctor School and he asked to invest $5,000 with me in one of my OLD CARS... When we sell the 1973 911E his Capital Gains Taxes will be three times his $5,000 investment... Do the Math on whether he made a good investment or not... My Daughter invested in the GREAT PUMPKIN and hopefully E9s will follow Porsches and she will do pretty well..
 
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hdavis said:
Thanks. In my view there are 2 reasons to shell out the $50 - $70 K"upgrade" premium between a cs and a csl. (At least that is what -based on the opinions stated by some of you above, I believe the change should cost me):

1.- Performance. I have never driven a csl, but if the performance difference is really there (like a 911S vs a 911RS, which the cs and cal get compared with), that would be part of the reason to "upgrade".

2.- The other one is investment grade. I do believe that csls have more appreciation potential than a regular cs or csi. And even though that is not why we purchase cars, it certainly rationalizes the expenditure (by transforming it into an investment).

Just my 2c........
Click to expand...

Henry,

my 2 cents - first question, what part of the country are you in? i do not believe there is a significant performance upgrade between a standard csl (non-bat) and a standard cs / csi. the base csl is a little lighter, but basically the same engine. not like the difference between an early '70's 911t and a 911s.

in fact, i believe that from a pure performance perspective, putting an S-38 engine into a standard coupe will outperform any base csl. something that should not be done to a CSL. both cars could have a pretty stout engine packed into the original block ... but nowhere the potential of the s38 ... probably not the cost either.

in terms of investment potential, the difference is the initial cost contrasted by the restoration cost ... then compared to the potential market value. we have seen TJ's CSL struggle to take $100k ... or at least take a while to get close. we have seen numerous coupes sell for 60k plus. the restoration cost of a CSL and a CS in similar structural and mechanical condition is significantly higher on the CSL - the body is more expensive to prepare due to the thinner panels, the interior bits are more expensive to buy as there are fewer dead soldier's to pick up pieces from. the mechanicals are basically the same cost, but the cost of the initial car is significantly more. a rust free CSL will cost a minimum of 45k to 60k depending on unrestored condition, and a similar CS would be 20k to 35k (not considering execmalibu's great buy). in my looking, most of the 30k CS / CSi are in better shape than the 50+k CSL that you might find.

getting back to investment potential - if you have a perfectly restored CSL, numbers matching, correct interior, original car ... it is worth more if all things are equal and done to the same level of completeness and finish. i have driven both, as have many people here ... i haven't driven a series 1 or 2 bat or a non-citypack car. but my opinion is that there isn't a significant performance difference. i wanted (possibly still want) to buy and restore a csl, now i'm not so sure - if i had the money to buy coupeguy's series 2 bat, and the money to restore it - different story. that is a coupe that has investment potential - easily twice what a normal CSL could be worth.
 
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Obviously, I am in the camp of believing in CSLs and the potential going forward.

That said, you have to love what you buy and if you are able to buy the best of breed in something that ticks all the boxes in the car world, great looking, sporty, great engineering etc, you can normally do ok, if you add in great racing history for the model and the whole generational thing, then you can do a whole lot better than ok and the CSL fits right in there.

But, timing is the big imponderable -thats why you have to love what you buy-

How many people here thought M1s were massively underpriced 20 years ago, 15 years ago or even two years ago, I know I did, but it is only in the last 18 months they have started to accelerate in price.

Is that because of the car or because of people starting to "get" BMW?

For my two pennies, I think people are starting to get BMW and therefore the rarest BMWs - of which there are not that many - are pretty good bets as a safe place for your money.

Least we forget, cost of ownership over time is generally ignored in this mathematical equation:)
 
Nash.. There are even cars that do NOT "tick ALL the boxes" are CRAZY ENPENSIVE!!!

Nash, I definitely agree that most cars as you say that "Tick all of the boxes" because they are beautiful, fast, and rare are usually the cars to buy with a huge monetary upside...

But there are a few exceptions to the rule...

Imagine a vintage car that is BUTT UGLY, Slow as DEATH, Prone to engine FAILURES, with absolutely HORRENDOUS HANDELING characteristics that was built and sold in absolutely enormous numbers being worth the same as a totally restored CSL...

There is such a vehicle and these vehicles often sell on a regular basis...

Figure out what it is yet???
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The VW Micro Buses with (21-23) Windows:-P Fiat Jollys are also insanely expensive at $60,000!
 
yes Jeff, there are exceptions to every rule. a porsche racing team in my home town - raced a speedster. they pulled it to races with a vw bus. the exception was that they stuffed a 2.7L engine from a 911 in it - making it extremely fast.
 
Jeff,

Agreed, on the VW bus:-P, we could add the Issetta and the 503 coupe just in the BMW world. I do have a soft spot for the 21 window bus though.

But, none of these would I recommend buying thinking you had upside and or that your money was safe.

People who like/love E9s have had a set of mixed emotions for a long time, wanting the great ones to be inexpensive enough to be able to afford and at the same time wanting the recognition they deserve. The recognition is now arriving for the best and will continue ( my opinion), the rest will be at a very different pace.
 
Great discussion and very informative. I love E9s, of all my classic cars, the E9 is the one I drive most often. Why? Because besides looking great it drives great and is almost as comfortable as a modern car.

I also happen to believe that classic cars are a good place to park money. I don't know if we'll experience the same investment results as execmalibu has, but as long as cars are kept in good shape they'll hold value pretty well; but some cars will do that better than others and a csl might be one of them.

Also if you enjoy cars (we all obviously do), you get to really enjoy your investment.

So again, thanks for all your comments, they have only reinforced my desire to look for a good csl
 
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