Current BaT Auction Car Question

[Bajasur]

Hi Everyone

A question about this current BaT auction.

Euro 1972 BMW 3.0CS 4-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a Euro 1972 BMW 3.0CS 4-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #150,879.

bringatrailer.com

I’m posting here out of respect for the seller because his auction might not be ending the way he/she had hoped…..

So here’s my question. If someone wants to do a full-on rotisserie professional E9 restoration with one of the well-known shops (insert a name here!), does it really matter the starting point? Would a different “in better” condition E9 actually cost less than the current BaT auction car to do a full restoration on? Or will the 6-figure professional restoration shop price be the same regardless of what E9 rolls into the shop? (I’m not going to even pretend I can do professional work myself).

Thanks for the expert advice. I’m about to professionally restore my E9 out of pure passion and love with zero intent to flip it. The condition of my E9 is similar to the current Bat auction. At the end of the day, will my checkbook require about the same number from “the big shops” regardless of beginning condition?

Do I do the resto on mine, or better to “part it” and start the search all over?

 

[tdgray]

Well you are assuming everyone knows exactly what condition yours is in… so we need a little more information. If you are not doing the work yourself then yes, a better car will be less cost … now a lot less.. depends.

 

[Bajasur]

Basically, the body is probably similar to the BaT auction. Mechanically very sound. Interior has been refurbished, albeit not to the level that I would take it. My mechanic gave me the same warning as SFDon gave in the BaT listing… careful driving her for safety reasons due to rust.

 

[sfdon]

Keep in mind money isn't everything. The good guys don't need any more business.

You want to do a resto on a Csl- lets go...

Restore a USA carb car rotten through with rust- why bother. I guess if it was your Dad's car- OK...Maybe..

Might actually hurt a shops reputation. Why are they working on trash.... Must need work...

Restorations are now $150k plus, plus, plus.

Just go buy a great one that's done and drive it next week.

I wouldn't let that car in our shop. Would make us look desperate.

 

[x_atlas0]

Initial quality absolutely matters. Think of it like this: those large price tags are based on the hours of work and parts. If you start with a better car, you are directly reducing the hours of work required. Last time I was asked to inspect one like this, I told them to assume rockers are gone, front clip is gone, everything under the A-pillars is gone. The back didn't look too bad at first blush. Redoing all those areas, for a good body shop, would likely be several hundred hours, in addition to all the other costs when taking it down to bare metal and repainting. Each hour is ~150$ or more. Let's say 200hr to redo that body alone, that's 30k right there.

On the one hand, if nobody saves the 'rough' ones anymore, the population of these cars will continue it's decline. At the same time, restoring a car is almost never the optimal economic choice. It's almost always cheaper to get one that someone else already restored (hopefully well) and go from there.

 

[sfdon]

There’s plenty of coupes out there.

That car is why triage was invented.

 

[Bajasur]

This all makes total sense. Very helpful to read. This is why I really appreciate this forum and the expertise out there! Especially for a newer E9 community member like me.

Ok, so a little help with budget. Let’s assume the starting point is a better car than the current BaT listing (and mine ). To do a really, really amazing top notch full professional restoration by one of the “good shops”, what is that number looking like these days? I know it is very case and owner specific, but some general rule of thumb would be helpful. SfDon mentioned 150k.??

 

[Bajasur]

I also like what x_atlas0 wrote:
“On the one hand, if nobody saves the 'rough' ones anymore, the population of these cars will continue its decline”.

 

[x_atlas0]

As another alternative, I started my resto when I was a broke college kid. My initial goal was to get the car in good enough condition that it would stop, or at least severely mitigate, any further deterioration. I'd like to think I have managed that, as none of my car's visible rust has come back after ~15 years. (including under the main exterior rocker skin) Back then, I was able to find a shop to do that for ~10k, then I spent some other money on powertrain elements because the car had a blown engine. (as in a literal hole in the side of the block) All in, including the price of the car, I managed to get a stable E9 built for <25k. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, the interior in particular is rough. My point is, I've enjoyed it without doing a 150k+ rotisserie resto while also being safe. Some of that is no longer possible at those price points, but I imagine it is still vastly cheaper than a full build.

Now that I'm older and have a little more means, I'm looking at doing a full build, but I have 2 advantages: the car isn't decaying aggressively anymore and it works as a car in the mean time. I can take my time selecting someone to do the work, or do more of it myself. There's no rush, and I can enjoy the car right now.

When I called around about a year ago, the going rate at The Werk shop, Coupeking, and VSR for an 'average' full teardown was ~150-200k and about 12-18 months, depending on condition.

 

[sfdon]

I think it will be tough getting anyone qualified to work on that car. It will take so much time that it will be impossible for the craftsman to service their other clients.
Shutting a business down to work on one car hurts your overall business.
I wouldn’t dream of taking it to my sheet metal shop. He would say no.

Csl? Different story…

We are doing one now.

 

[Bajasur]

Thanks, all. Very helpful input here. I understand the initial condition of an E9 does make a difference for a full tear down and restoration. I also understand the decision to restore a classic car, whatever car it may be, is a highly personal decision impacted by so many factors (sentiment, emotions, money, wanting to save a piece of automotive art, utility, goals, etc.). Is it ever purely rational? Probably not. Impractical? Surely! X_Atlas0, I called around as well to the “usual suspects” for a complete tear down, and found the numbers these days are similar to what you found. I’m currently in the midst of a professional full tear down on my 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV. Practical? Nope. But she sure as hell is going to make me smile and continue those “thumbs up” when she’s out! I think a full resto E9 parked next to her would be amazing. Talk about two cars to smile about! And that, friends, is why I own my cars. They each have a unique personality and make me smile!

 

[eriknetherlands]

With a body this far gone, it's many hours getting just the metal ok.
Such rust

Can only be solved by doing this:


My guess at least 400 hours by a pro body shop. 1000 hours for someone doing it himself.
2000 hours by me (first resto)

Now if you buy a car for 60k, it may have fenders and rockers that are good enough to keep driving it( if sealed up well) with a smoky engine, taty outside and shot interior. You may need to spend 20k on some rust or body imperfections, but that would be 1-2 months of work.

Then the rest of a 150/200k budget; 70 to 120k could be spend on stuff that you actually see : interior trim, wheels, a paint job. Who knows: wind splits and a rear BAT wing?

200k also buys you a well used csl....
Drive the next day, and tinker the ten years to come?

 

[eriknetherlands]

Fully fresh ready to go at 180k?

Te koop: BMW 3.0 CSi (1973) aangeboden voor € 180.000

Kleur: Blauw, Kilometerstand: 500 km, Vermogen: 147/200 kW/pk, Carrosserie: Coupé (Coupe), Code fabrikant: E9, Verkoper: Germany Exclusive – www.classic-trader.com

www.classic-trader.com

 

[bluecoupe30!]

Hmmm, it has been my observation that many Classic car restorations are started because there is that emotional aura hanging over the car, whatever condition it is in. Owner has an image in his/her head of what the car could look like after some "attention". Owner may solicit opinions from people whose judgement he respects and try to summon courage to dive in. There is often a belief that the rust is "not that bad". We here, on the E9 Forum, realize that these cars are often over 50 yrs old. Rust has done its damage and there is way more deep inside. Shop labour costs have increased from when any of us had our Healey or old Volvo worked on in the '80s. And a quality paint finish is a whole other story. Simply put, it is scary expensive, today, to restore a car what some would call "properly" without making some compromises. If pockets are deep, none of this matters. But an E9 often strains the budget. Proceed with caution.

 

[Honolulu]

Tough crowd!

Pics 72 and 73, is the fan mounted the correct way? Looks as if the blades curve the wrong way. I'm too lazy to go look at mine just now.

 

[Stevehose]

Tough crowd!

Pics 72 and 73, is the fan mounted the correct way? Looks as if the blades curve the wrong way. I'm too lazy to go look at mine just now.

Definitely backwards

 

[Fritzie]

Definitely backwards

That’s the easiest part to restore/replace/reassemble

 

[BarneyT]

This fellow could fix this car, been to his shop seen the work in progress/completed…look him up worth the time.

 

[Christoph]

Very good and helpful thread. Rebuilding wrecks only makes sense, economically, if they are CSL wrecks or maybe CSi in rare and appreciated colours. Any other E9 and more so E3 can only be rescued out of sentimental reasons. The money will be gone. On the other hand, it is good there are sentimental fools around to save cars that would normally discarded. Even better to have experienced E9 people around; they have seen every stage of decay and are not feared of anything.

You probably have seen @Keshav 's post "Cars and coffee outside Wiesbaden" or whatever. As he writes the Türkis 3.0 CSL is for sale. It is fast and reliable and looks good also when lifted. Rereading @eriknetherlands 's addition this car might be a good choice.

 

[Christoph]

Fully fresh ready to go at 180k?

Another one: their page is down for maintenance for at least three days now. They have four cars on Classic Trader, all not finished yet. As a reference they point to a 3.0 CSi that went on BaT in February for a lot of money. @sfdon and others commented on the car. You cannot judge a car by pictures alone but if I did I would not find it all convincing.