E9 Engine swap question

djm1968

djm1968

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Hello,

I am new to the e9coupe forums -- I am a huge fan of the CS cars, and my wife is proding me to restore one, vs. buying a newer BMW.

Our goal is to have a car prepared, in the next 5 years or so, to compete in the Targa Newo Foundland. I was quite exited to see this Gentlemen's conversion of the Bavaria to updated mechanicals. This is basically what I want to do, except for I am planning on using a 2800/3000 cs as the foundation.
http://www.seniorsix.org/photos/onelap/frankenbav.html

I have many questions, but the primary questions I have are:

1) Will and e46 M3 motor work for this type of swap? From what I have read, it should be possible from a dimensional standpoint.

2) Would it be possible to use an SMG gear box?

I have a lead on a euro spec E46 M3 motor+ smg trans with very low mileage -- for a very good price.

Am I complete off my rocker to even consider this swap, or might it be possible?

Thanks and best regards,
Dominic
 
That would certainly be a helluva hybrid. Nothing is impossible given the right amount of time and money, so if you've got unlimited amounts of both I'd say "go for it". E9s have been the subject of many powerplant transplants over the years, Ping's M5 based CS, Doug van Dorsten's S38 powered CSL, and many others. See Paul Cain's recent 2002 project to see what is possible given a lot of engineering, thought and craftsmanship. Having said that, you'll face some pretty serious challenges with the E46 swap, starting with drivetrain issues (OE E9 diff won't last long with that kinda torque and power if you even got it to fit), instrumentation, and fitting the damned thing in the engine bay.

As a CSL owner who is facing a future S38 install I am deeply respectful of the amount of work required to do these sorts of things. For my money this is the best blend of performance/exotica/ease of install that can be done, but I've not even begun the real work so talk to me in a year and see how I feel.

Would such a beast even be legal in the Targa Newie?

Good luck!
 
First: will your wife talk to my wife for me????

Re: ...would it be legal for the Targa Newfy?

Doubtful..having had a recent conversation w/ Mr. Arnold about Franken Bav, building a rally/race CS and possible Targa entry, sounds like a lot of his anually beaten competition are starting to put pressure on the organizers about period 'correctness'. (IE: complaining/whining about FrankenBav)

I think the other 'classic' guys with their new 450hp crate motors in their 'vintage' Mustangs/Cameros' are starting to make it very diffucult for Mr. Arnold and FrankenBav in its present form...........he might have to put an M30 back in to run his class.

If you want to do vintage events and be classed properly, I suggest keeping it w/ an M30 configuration. If you want to build a newer 'resto-mod', be warned that you may be inelligible for many events or classed in something else (which can be un-fun).....I suggest start going to vintage rallies/races and see what is acceptible (numerous mods are) and ask the Techs/Organizers alot of questions. Some clubs may care, some won't at all. Build the car around the events/clubs you'd like to participate in.

Ultimatley its your car & project and have fun, if you put in a modern engine, enjoy but get ready to possibly be classed w/ the new Corvettes/Porches/M3s........ :shock:

have fun and rally on!

-shanon
 
Dinna someone recently propose that an e28 rear subframe will bolt up to an e9 with little or no mods? That opens up a wide variety of stronger differentials, including all those used in the M5 and M6.

Also, if you need to run an M30 for "vintage" status, remember that with a relatively inexpensive (~$5,000) turbo setup you can see over 300 wheel HP from an M30...
 
Frankenbav used a E28 rear subframe in his Bavaria. I THINK a E12 subframe will fit which also serves to widen the rear track but if you don't want to try only to find out that it won't then a E12 M535 limited slip diff bolts straight in no mods as will the same diff from the early 6 series providing that the driveshafts have the same number of bolt holes.
 
Some things to consider

Electrical wiring in post 1996 cars is much more complicated than what E9s came with. You will have to get all the M3 harnesses related to the engine and transmission and possibly other parts of the car, since a lot more stuff seems to be integrated now.

How are you going to control the SMG trans? Swap in the steering column with paddles.

These engines really fill the E46 engine bay. Will it fit around the E9 brake booster? Steering box?

What will you use for a speedometer, since there is no provision for a cable drive? (BMWs from roughly 1982 on used electronic speedometers driven from a sensor on the differential.)

Will you have to fabricated new engine mounts? Exhasut system?

Will the transmission fit the E9 transmission 'tunnel'?

You will want to reinforce the E9 body shell to cope with over 300 HP but unless you put in a full cage, it will still be very flexible compared to anything newer.

Terry Sayther is building an E36 M3 powered 2002 which is basically a 2002 body grafted onto an E36 chassis. That kind of approach might actually be easier in the long run for what you want to do. I think you are going to be reengineering most of the car.

I hope you are persistent and well-funded - this can't be easy!
Bill
 
Hello,

I am new to the e9coupe forums -- I am a huge fan of the CS cars, and my wife is proding me to restore one, vs. buying a newer BMW.
Click to expand...

So, your wife is obviously the coolest wife on the planet.
 
tripower said:
Hello,

I am new to the e9coupe forums -- I am a huge fan of the CS cars, and my wife is proding me to restore one, vs. buying a newer BMW.
Click to expand...

So, your wife is obviously the coolest wife on the planet.
Click to expand...

She is a native of Munich, she is tall, beautiful, super intelligent, and likes cool old cars.

We did a 4,000 mile road trip is a restored 68 Fastback Mustang a few years back. The night before the trip I had to replace some bolts on the rear suspension - there she was, under the car with me, wrenching until 1am.

What a woman!

Dominic
 
Thanks to everyone for so many replies to my inquiry.

After reading some of your replies, I am re-thinking the engine swap plans. I have no problems to fabricate and restore old cars -- I have restored and "resto-moded" two fastback Mustangs, one of which was raced quite a bit.

My main concern is more in regards to legaility -- going to all that trouble, only to wind up with a car that is not legal for most racing classes...well, that is no fun.

I have to admit it -- I am stuck between wanting the classic styling of an old car, vs. the performance of the newer vehicles.

We are still currently looking for an e9 to restore, so maybe I should take a step back and ask a more general question:

Are there certain years that are better/worse candidate for a resto-mode project? For example, is a 1971 2800 CS a better/worse place to start than say a 1972 CS 3.0? I.E. -- is there major differences in the body/chasis between certain years that would preclude certain models from being a good choice for such a project? I have read some E9 history and all I could find in the that late 2800s had somewhat odd rear suspension (narrower track).

Thanks again for the many replies!

Dominic
 
Re: Some things to consider

Bill Riblett said:
Terry Sayther is building an E36 M3 powered 2002 which is basically a 2002 body grafted onto an E36 chassis. That kind of approach might actually be easier in the long run for what you want to do. I think you are going to be reengineering most of the car.

I hope you are persistent and well-funded - this can't be easy!
Bill
Click to expand...

Bill, thanks for all your thoughts on my idea -- very good reality checking!

This E36 2002 being built by Terry Sayther...where can I found out more? I think you are correct that it might be an easier more reasonable route. Something I am willing to investigate.

THanks,
Dominic
 
This is only one of Terry's projects!

Here is the link:
http://www.terrysaytherauto.com/Frankenbimmer.htm
Terry has an independent BMW repair shop and a good staff, including a bodyman, and part of Terry's "income" from the shop seems to be all the project cars.

You asked if any of the E9s are better candidates for what you want to do and I would say not particularly. The big difference performance wise, at least for track work, are the 4 wheel vented disk brakes on the 3.0s and they are a bolt on swap for a 2800CS.
 
Frankenbav used a E28 rear subframe in his Bavaria. I THINK a E12 subframe will fit which also serves to widen the rear track but if you don't want to try only to find out that it won't then a E12 M535 limited slip diff bolts straight in no mods as will the same diff from the early 6 series providing that the driveshafts have the same number of bolt holes.
Click to expand...

I know about Bill Arnold's swap, but AFAIK the e3 and e9 subframes are not plug and play, so I wasn't sure about e28 to e9. I swear someone told me an e28 would fit in an e9, but that's a little counterintuitive.

Again AFAIK, there's no difference in strength of the various sideloader differentials from the e3, e9 and e12, i.e. no stronger r&p or larger output flanges. Alpina added an oil cooler to some of the B7's, but I still don't think they beefed up the internals. Alpina ran over 300hp through them, so they'r pretty strong.

I need top pull my e9's rear subframe to get a crack in the diff mount welded, and I have a spare e12 rear subframe in a parts car, so perhaps I'll have to give this a try for the greater good. If I can find an e28 subframe I could try that too. Someone around PDX is bound to have one.
 
With the E46 engine and SMG, you'd have to fake out the EWS system, no small task. It would probably be cheaper to skip all the original control systems and get a Motec, since it has been shown to do all the BMW bits, like VANOS.

Also, the trans tunnel issue is a big deal, as the trans used in the E46 M3 (the S6S 420G, If I recall right) is used in the 540, and it is very tight in the E34 and E39 tunnels. You might want to go to a pick-n-pull and measure some of these parts. Heck, the 6 speed trans is a good 3-5" longer than the 265, when I was looking at it.

As others have said, if you went this route, you would have to change a whole lot of little things, like the guage cluster, the engine bay configuration, probably the steering, and most certainly the chassis. A rather gargantuan undertaking. But, hey, if you have the cash and the time, go for it.

I am rather curious as to why you want to go with the SMG, though.
 
few thoughts . . as I am very familiar with Frankenbav . . . I have been a sponsor for this entry in the Targa Newfoundland, and have serviced the car , and driven it cross country from NH to Austin texas via New Orleans and OBX.

My travels in this car were when it was powered with a 3.0 S50 . . it then became a 3.2 S52 , and was converted back to an M3 last year as Targa rules required a car that was more in spec with the period. This required regearing as the original set up was for more power, the M30 more set up for torque.

This Bavaria went through extensive chassis modifications to accept the e28 front suspension and steering, when I first drove the car steering was an E28 box , numerous u joints in the steering column , the car now has a steering rack, not sure what the origination of that piece. The cage in this car is very extensive, built to FIA specs. and needed in a car of this vintage for Targa type events.

Targa rules have tightened up, as a new event they allowed a few cars to run that weren't period correct just to have entries, as this event now has a solid footing, things will be tighter.

Building a CS Coupe for Targa . . it might be easier to start with a Flexible Flyer from Western Auto. One would need to strip the chassis and build a full blown cage with additional chassis reinforcements. a compliant suspension firm with lot's af travel is required. Frankenbav returned after year one with several suspension components out of form, and had a frame 1"-2" under the oil pan for crash landings. This was hard up against the oil pan after the event, no doubt saving the engine!

Frankenbav is a monster and a total hoot to drive. This car does not come alive until speeds exceed 70 mph, and it pulls strong to way over 140 mph! at speed it is super stable, the E21 320i front spoiler plants the nose well inspite of the huge ground clearance. Whan I drove it it was unbearably loud, my wiffe and I had no conversations while enroute. The seats are E0 M3, and very comfortable.


I have sponsored cars in the past few Targa's, An E30 M3 that placed well last year, along with a few others. Every year I see the cars after this event. I know of no other race event for road racers as harsh as a Targa! If you want to be competitive, the car has to be strong. Those that aren't reinforced return bent, not from accidents, just extremne stress induced by flying over rough roads!

Don't let me deter you from a good project! Just know what you are in for.
 
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