E9 Find: Please help with the value (Pics Inside)

[Markos]

Hi Folks,

I'm a long time auto enthusiast and expert web surfer . I'm new to BMW's, and I've been on the hunt for an E28 for over a year. I recently approached my neighbor about purchasing the E9 he's had parked outside of his house for a year (in the elements). It's a '71 four speed, and also includes the original wheels. I've been spending the weekend researching E9's, rust issues, cost of door seals, parts availability, etc. I've also looked over the various threads on pricing and value. With that said, I'd like to get your opinion on the vehicle. For what it's worth, I do all of my own mechanical work. More complicated jobs include a head gasket, and a manual transmission (VW O2O bolt kit) rebuild. I enjoy metal fabrication, but consider myself a novice welder. I've never done any body work. My father in law owns a body shop, and I could get his help with finishing and paint.

So here is the deal. I put an offer on the table for this vehicle. I want to ensure that I'm not throwing my money away, with your commentary on the photos below. I would greatly appreciate it if you please throw out some values? It would be helpful if you didn't say "don't buy it". I'd like to rescue the car regardless of whether I restore it, part it, or give it to someone who can.

1. Wheel Wells:
Seem solid, plastic covering but no spongy feeling when pressed, no gaping holes.

2. Rockers:
Center section seems solid, minor rot at the rear section, no holes. Holes and major flaking in the first 12". Only checked the driver's side.

3. Floors:
Squishy floor pan plug on driver’s side. Major flaking, looks like I could punch through with ease. Passenger side looks good from the top side. Rear foot wells seem good.

4: Fenders:
Front fenders look really good. No rust in visible from the hood. Front shock towers look good. Some bubbling behind the front tires in the scary zone. May be some body filler there, not quite sure.

5: Window Frames:
Rear window frame looks sound. Front upper window frame looks sound. Passenger side lower window frame has some bubbling and flaking.

6: Spare Tire Well:
Best spot on the car!

7: Shock Towers:
Condition unknown. However, the back half of the car is in really good shape. I pressed around from inside the trunk and felt no soft sports, but didn't want to mess with the elephant skin. I attempted to snap a pic from the shock side, but I didn't see much. I'm pretty confident that they are in good shape.

8: Nose & Valance:
Looks good!

Other comments. The interior is poor. The seats are a black velour. Everything is intact, but parts are wet and there is definitely mildew present. Wood must be replaced. The dash is cracked. The radio is 80’s aftermarket.

The car is a four speed. The engine has been modified in some “stage II” way by a tuner in California. The owner drove it last year, but the gas is about six years old. I’m pretty confident that I can get it running.

Lastly, there is a lot of debris in the engine compartment that may generate concern. There isn’t really any rust in the engine bay.

Not bad at 10 feet:

Wheel Well:

Fuse Box:

Drivers Floor:

Driver Fender/Door:

Passenger Trunk Seal:

Rear Bench:

Driver Rear Fender

Driver Rocker Rear:

Driver Rocker Front:

Driver Shock Mount:

Passenger Shock Mount:

Passenger Windscreen Frame:

 

[sfdon]

No telling without the debris swept out- there might be more problems than we can see.
As a WAG...... 15 k in body and paint, 2-3 years of work.
I would give it a value of 5-6 thousand US.
I think you are in for a huge project.

 

[HB Chris]

"Front fenders look really good"

Your front fenders as viewed in the engine bay, quarter panels, rockers and areas under the front and rear windshields are toast. Your trunk well looks fine but that is of little consequence I am afraid. This car has sat outside for eons and it shows. Add the unknowns of the mechanicals and you have a money pit. Ask a member here who is nearby to look at it for you and leave the rose colored glasses at home.

:-(

And Don's estimate for body work is low, sorry.

 

[kasbatts]

Don't know US values, but I know you would be in for a lot of work.

E9's hide there rust, so if what you can see is bad, what you cant see will be worse.... much worse.

That car will need loads of work and quite a bit of money spent.


Best Of luck if you buy it

 

[Markos]

No rose colored glasses here, trust me. I'm simply looking to understand what I should pay for a car in this shape.

Also, I could use some help understanding why the fenders are toast as seen from the bay. The upper fenders are one area that has no visible rust or bubbling, even under the sound deadening on the shock tower. Clearly, the rockers are Swiss cheese.

 

[HB Chris]

Kinda hard to tell but it appears the fender seams and areas next to them are rotting. Clear away the debris for a better look. Also, rust under front windshield near A pillar has worked its way down to front quarter panels where it has bubbled which leads to rockers and even more rust. The surface rust near fuse panel is also troubling, it should look like the original primer. Even the fuse door has evidence of water intrusion, never good.

 

[Peter Coomaraswamy]

Hi Markos, welcome to the best resource for e9's that I could ever think of. I appreciate your questions and have to say that the advice given below is well worth taking. If you want to rebuild a complete goner then this is the car for you; there are others who have done it with remarkable results but, BUT they knew exactly what they were up against. I do not mean to presume but if you are asking the price value of this car then it is probably not the right car for you. I think SF Don was being kind with his estimation, you could pay 10K for that car and never even miss it by the time you get it stripped down and start ordering parts. I think you will regret it. As a parts car I think the bumpers could be worth something, and I'm being serious, I don't see anything else that someone would buy. If you got the car for less than 1K, you could completely strip it down, salvage a few parts and in the process learn allot about the cars and their weak points making yourself familiar with the model. Other than that, I hate to say it but you could buy a 60K car and it would cost less than making that one a 20K car. For example, regarding the mold, it took me over 15 hours just to clean the trunk of an e9 I recently purchased that was infected with mold and there was barely any rust stains let alone rust on this particular car- see the thread "well I have to start somewhere".

Please keep visiting this site, ask lots of questions and wait for a "good" one to come up and jump on it. Since you are mechanical, wait for one with a blown engine or an auto trans that has given up the ghost but has a super body and interior. There is your bargain!!

Good luck!

 

[Markos]

I'll return with a shop and 200' of extension cord. I'm following up on my offer tomorrow, but I need to know the value. Debris or not, I am confident that the upper fenders have no rot. If it isn't apparent, I only took pics of the problem areas. It's just gunk, not rust.

I fully acknowledge that the firewall has issues, unknown to the naked eye. I would be willing to drill the spot welds, grind the butt welds, work through the brazing to find the problem area.

I wouldn't spend $15K on body work for any car. No offense to the beautiful machines on this forum. I'd fix the rust and interior sheet metal and spend no more than $5K on 5' paint job, leaving myself with a fun driver.

How about resale value? If I decide to get the engine running and sell it, would somebody buy it or is the rust issue too compelling? Is there demand for inexpensive starters for people who can do their own bodywork? I saw a full disclosure rust bucket on here that did pretty well on eBay. I'll dig up the link later. I'm unfamiliar with the E9 demographic. It's definitely different than most other BMW demographics.

 

[Markos]

Peter,

Thank you for the eloquent reply. Exactly what I was looking for. So your value is $1K, as a parts car. I'm good with a reciprocating saw and an angle grinder.

 

[Peter Coomaraswamy]

Markos, if you can get the car for 1K, take off the bumpers, all the trim, clean em up best you can and you'll be able to sell them on ebay. You will not make any money, because even if you sell the parts for more than you pay for the car, the time it would take would be extensive, and you could make more money in less time parking cars as a valet. But, if you have the time and space and enjoy that type of work and your psychiatrist is on vacation for over a month, then by all means purchase, tear down, learn, relieve some stress and sell some parts-

Whatever road you choose enjoy and have fun!

 

[MyFemurHurts]

First off Markos, thanks for keeping another MkII VW alive by rebuilding the 020. My 16V spat a rivet out, puked fluid all over the clutch, and I learned that the second shop that says "you have a hole in your transmission" probably isn't lying. :cry:

If you do buy this E9 and part it out, let me know if you'll cut out and sell the spare tire well. That's nicer than the one I have in mine.

Rust on these are diabolical. That one looks alright to someone unfamiliar with E9's, which means it scares the crap out of us that know a little about them.

 

[HB Chris]

An inexpensive respray and bodywork without receipts and photos will chase away buyers regardless of price, there are too many unknowns. The junk sold on eBay to unsuspecting buyers is troubling, no one wants to be taken advantage of.

 

[Markos]

Hi Folks, I haven’t given up on the idea yet, but I will revise my offer to $1K. Call it “red mist” if you will…
First off, this video on youtube helps me understand what things look like under the fenders. I'm sure won't agree with the sheet metal work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA8WaSkbM8s

There are a few things that I don’t quite grasp yet, and I hope you guys can help me out. Both Chris and Peter have responded to the thread.

Markos, if you can get the car for 1K, take off the bumpers, all the trim, clean em up best you can and you'll be able to sell them on ebay. You will not make any money, because even if you sell the parts for more than you pay for the car, the time it would take would be extensive, and you could make more money in less time parking cars as a valet.

Peter – you are essentially telling me this is a sub $1K parts car, even though I can get it running and it is visually intact on the outside. Yes yes I know, they rust from the inside out. This site makes that abundantly clear.
Does everyone agree that this is a $1K car or no?

With all of the discussion around rising coupe prices, I created a 'simple' spreadsheet that I would be willing to maintain….

#5: these cars may be drivable but much mechanical work is needed, body needs complete restoration and new interior (this is my definition)

Rusty Parts Car with good parts $5K

Why is this not a $5K car?

Next, a car that looks great on the outside but needs TLC in the foundation seems appealing to me. I can weld in a floor board. Welded floor boards are invisible on a driver. Welded rockers are covered by factory fascia. The shock towers are in good shape front and back. How about the most problem prone area. Accessible by cutting the fenders off right? What if I go through the firewall?
It seems to be that the main concern with these cars is that nobody is that all the work is farmed out to a body shop. I could probably spend 100 hours sanding a fender but I know I could weld a floorboard in a day. There is also much talk about the body tweaking when you cut parts out of it. Why not weld/bolt in support beams before cutting? Like so:
[

Your front fenders as viewed in the engine bay, quarter panels, rockers and areas under the front and rear windshields are toast.

Why is the area under the rear window toast?

 

[Peter Coomaraswamy]

Markos, I see 3 things that can be easily removed from the car and sold; the bumpers, the rear tail light lenses and "other surround pieces" and the hood grills because they look like metal ones. I think Chris' $ parts car would be "up to 5K". It does not matter if you can get it running, it won't be safe to drive without tons of work. Hey, if you want to do it, we'll be happy to help- but right now the most help we can be is giving you a fair "heads up". That car is a "dog's breakfast"- sorry.

 

[Nicad]

No rose colored glasses here, trust me. I'm simply looking to understand what I should pay for a car in this shape.

Also, I could use some help understanding why the fenders are toast as seen from the bay. The upper fenders are one area that has no visible rust or bubbling, even under the sound deadening on the shock tower. Clearly, the rockers are Swiss cheese.

Really the only thing you should be looking for in a project is lack of rust. The serious rust in these cars is hidden from view and requires a lot of skill time and money to fix. Best to search for a burnt out E9 from one of the few dry areas. You can quite easily find a good interior from a rusted out hull if need be. The mechanical bits are the most satisfying to get right at your own speed.

 

[HB Chris]

My definition of Condition 5 didn't mean to include major body panel replacements in a restoration. Rust is appearing everywhere it seems. The value could be between $1K-$5K, we haven't seen it in person. But the interior is worn, the engine doesn't run, if firewall rust is bad it could literally fold in half. The video shows that these cars can be resurrected with enough talent, time and money but it will be hideously expensive. Our mantra is buy the best example that you can afford, not the biggest and cheapest project. Even if you do the paint and bodywork yourself, would you reuse the old trim, windshield, window and door rubbers, chrome sills, etc? It's the the odds and ends that can kill you, it all adds up. It looks to be at best a parts car with questionable parts, like an iceberg where only 10% of the problem is visible.

 

[Markos]

Chris,

Firstly I know I'm perceived as the new guy who's arguing about restoration costs to a bunch of E9 veterans. However, you keep stating that the rust mitigation will be expensive, yet I keep stating that I would do the metal work myself. Mild steel is cheap. Floor pans are cheap. Soda blasters are cheap. Welders are relatively cheap (mine certainly was). What am I missing (Body work aside please).


I'm sensing some hive mentality on what a finished product is. The finished product for this could be a "level 5" not everyone is gunning for a showroom beauty. Does *anyone on here have a beater? Everyone states that you can hold out for a cheap rust free example, yet I see no examples online anywhere. By cheap, I'm comparing this potentially $1K car against the next closet $10k version, a price point with extremely low inventory and similar but less severe rust issues.

 

[HB Chris]

Sorry I sound so negative. Yes, steel is cheap but replacing floor pans with flat steel and not replacements will show. Fenders may need to come off, lots of structure under them as well may need replacement. Rockers are three pieces not one and that adds to expense. When I see rust under windshield, down the fender near door and then into rockers as well as possible firewall issues it gets even more expensive.

You are right there isn't much inventory of $10K coupes because they are in the same shape as $1-5K coupes, most buyers won't touch them. And most of the beaters have already rusted away. I would love to see you rescue this and doing all the work yourself is great but you will still have to address the engine and mechanical aspects as well as trim and interior. All coupes don't need to be show cars, they need to be driven. But getting this coupe to a solid driver status where it can be resold will be very difficult I think, just my opinion however. Let us know what else you find, clear away the leaves and poke at the tops of fender seams, check frame rails, etc. Truly wishing you the best on this but don't want you to be deceived either.

 

[JFENG]

Free body work

Peter
I agree that this car seems to need everything. Figure $40k plus parts. But if he's got a body shop where he can work, experts to advise him, and a few hundred hours of free labor from the shop guys, this car could be resurrected for $20k, an hell have a $50k or better car.

 

[tmason]

For a 1000.00 bucks it's worth digging into and if nothing else just to see how they rust from the inside out.Sounds like you have the means and if you do part it out can I have 1st chance at the trim on the doors (wood)?
Good luck with your bid.