Engine problem on fresh build

CharlesJ

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Hi All - I had a gut-wrenching discovery last week as I reached a major milestone on my restoration, and could use some help understanding what could have gone wrong and what to do next. Long story short, my basically new, fully-built engine (by Korman) appears to have bent valves and contact dents on several of the pistons with correlated low compression, and I cannot understand why.

Here is the longer version: Back in 2020, Korman completed a complete top to bottom build replacing almost every part in the engine and fully building as new. Here are the relevant build details:
  • Original ‘73 Block w/later ‘78 head (as recommended by Korman, my original had micro cracks)
  • Nearly every part is new except the original stock crank, cam and a few other bits. All new valvetrain, pistons, rods, bearings, seals, etc
  • Higher euro spec compression 9.5:1 forged pistons, slightly overbore
  • Pics of build included

Once complete, the engine was shipped back, where it was (relatively) promptly set in the car with the peripherals and filled with oil, but ultimately not progressed much past that point for a few years

Flash forward to current time. I finally got in the electrical system, completed the fuel system, and finished off all the other bits around the engine. Before attempting to start, I changed and checked the oil, removing the valve cover to make sure there was oil across the entire head and chain tensioner. From there I followed Korman’s start procedures first rotating the engine manually, then cranking by starter with fuel and ignition deactivated till the oil was properly pressurized. After that, hooked everything back up, and it fired up pretty easily, but with a notable miss that did not improve after letting it run for a short period.

At this point, I did a compression test, noting four cylinders that are low (100-130), two are zero. To look into the issue, I bought a bore scope, which is where I discovered the obvious valve marks (pics below) - some worse than others, a couple with no mark that I can see. I can however only see one side of the piston, so not sure if the other valve hit on the other side of the piston

Even though I believe the engine should still be non-interference, my first thought was to check the cam timing. I checked the alignment of the cam gear and cam lobes on two rotations (pics below showing #1 lobes up and down at TDC), and from what I can tell, it looks dead on.

And so I am left with the question of what happened? The engine is basically new, always properly lubed (still has assembly lube on it), timing appears correct, carefully went through start procedures, and the damage is not consistent across all cylinders. The one theory I have is that the valve clearances may have been incorrectly set during the build, but would love some advice from others here that know more than I if this is the answer and where to go from here.




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Wow, this is terrible to hear especially since you’ve never run it. The only explanation could be that it was erroneously timed and turned over when they were building the engine, thus colliding the valves with the Pistons, and then later properly timed?? Have you spoken to Ray about this? I hate to hear this for you and wish you all the best of luck getting it properly back into running condition.

Based on what I see in the Build picture, they used a putty to potentially verify that the valves did not collide with the pistons. I suspect that if they were doing this test, there were concerns about the high lift cam along with the high compression piano top Pistons. You can only assume that the test was performed properly.
 
Thinking out loud...
You might be able to check valve clearance on exhaust and intake to determine which valves have issues. If valves are bent they usually have excessive clearance. It would be good to know if they've contacted on both sides. You said original stock cam and 9.5:1 compression isn't that aggressive. You'd think Korman has used those pistons in the past, valves, head gasket. Any of those things could be wrong. Shaved head? A shaved head or thinner head gasket could cause the lift on a factory cam to be excessive.

Rick's idea of sticking valves is very valid. I had an M10 2002 motor do that but I got lucky and it did it while turning over by hand.
 
Do not take the head off. Important.

Looks like your cam timing is off.

The 12:00 bolt on your cam gear appears to be 10* advanced.

You understand that you only turn an engine 1 direction when setting timing?
IMG_8015.jpeg
 
Thanks all - without taking the valve cover off, it was a little difficult to get a picture of the cam gear alignment. Using the bore scope, I got a better shot but also may have had it a hair past TDC on the lobes up picture. I am going to do a video of inside a cylinder rotating by hand to show the valves in action. They look way closer than I would have expected

@sfdon - I am only rotating one direction. I researched a bunch of posts on prep, and I think it may have been a post of yours making that point previously. I also had the same idea about the head - trying to leave the build fully intact without changing anything until I find the cause

In the build, the head was surfaced, and they selected the head gasket thickness based on that. I can find the exact size in my build sheet I believe. The pistons were ones they frequently used, so should not be anything out of the ordinary.

Pics inside the cylinder were not taken at TDC, though I will go take one to show it. Piston comes up very high to the head, so hard to get a good shot
 
You saw oil in the chain tensioner piston well, but you might not have had a fully "charged" piston after a long time sitting.
Even though you never turned engine that way it is possible there was some backwards crank rotation as a result of compression; powered cranking stops with pressure in cyl thus reversal. Would that have been enough to do damage ???
Check and see if you have hydraulic action from the tensioner or possibly a stuck piston. There is a spring in there, right?
There is/was an issue with new tensioner pistons built with an additional spring on the check ball which hindered normal bleeding of the piston. Not sure if applies back to 2020 but may want to follow up on that.
 
Check the post, Don explains how to check and #30 has great video link:

Does rod knock get louder with higher revs?​

 
I'm still trying to make sense of the motor turning by hand fine but having interference after starting. If that's the case it seems the physical setup is okay for piston, valves, head but the variable may be in the timing chain assy like others alluded to.
 
I'm still trying to make sense of the motor turning by hand fine but having interference after starting. If that's the case it seems the physical setup is okay for piston, valves, head but the variable may be in the timing chain assy like others alluded to.
It is very strange, but also not sure when it happened. It has been turned a bit over to keep from seizing up, and it has been run on the starter a few times prior to the first startup to check everything.


On a separate note, I took two videos (Cylinder 1 and 2) with the borescope rotating a full two cycles by hand. The valves come close, but not sure what is considered too close:

Cylinder 1:

Cylinder 2:
 
Any thoughts here on if the videos look right/wrong, and if there is any way I can check if the valve clearance are correct without taking the head off? I checked the cam timing again, and it is definitely spot on.
 
Think you'd need some fancy heart surgery tools. Just in case you have a medical friend...introduce and expand a wire stent, then view deformation after rotation.
If the valve being checked is already bent then clearance measurement of questionable diagnostic value.
Low buck option: If could place deformable plastic rod in Plastigauge fashion, they make it pretty large.
Plastigauge PL-F For measurements of 0.070" - 0.120 (1.75mm-3.00mm) packs of 5 gauges, each gauge is 100mm or about 4 inches in length)


Did you ever check tensioner?
Any loose or stripped valve adjusting eccentrics nuts that could have vibrated in and out of favorable clearances?
 
You are welcome to drop in for a conference call with the shop.
The 3 of us have 100+ years combined experience building engines.

You will need to have a decent micrometer on hand and a full set of feeler gauges.
 
Always liked valve relief flycuts for a bit of "insurance".
Sometimes doesn't help if the problem is nitrous:oops:. About five tanks per piston but still cheaper than flying.
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