Go fenders off to restore??

[twistinglane]

After reading a lot of posts, etc, I'm starting to think that maybe wisest to plan to remove fenders (and outer rockers) in restoring most any less than perfect E9... otherwise can't really assure self -and future owners - that the car really is sound. So my questions are...

-Am I on right track or overreacting to what I hear about cars with problems?

- is this what the pros do routinely?

- Can reasonably sound panels usually be removed and reused? Here is an impressive post I found on this last topic http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6971
Paul

 

[twistinglane]

For clarification not planning this as DIY. But working with good body man whose experience is more with American muscle

 

[FastCougar]

I'm sure more knowledgable owners will reply, but I can assure you that unless it's been stored in a desert since the day it rolled off the factory line that it more than likely has rust. The question is, how much and where. Good luck!

 

[JFENG]

Depends ...

-Am I on right track or overreacting to what I hear about cars with problems?
- is this what the pros do routinely?
- Can reasonably sound panels usually be removed and reused?
Paul

IMHO(assuming car is mostly unrestored)
If you want to drive it in the rain and you don't want it to rust, I'd have the fenders off and that entire inner area restored using modern methods and materials. Then I'd install fender liners.

I don't think there is such a thing as "what pros routinely do"
Each paying customer is different in their needs/budget/understanding
ANY body panel, no matter how rusty can be restored (although only a few inches of the original steel may actually be retained). The real question do you restore when it's cheaper to use a replacement panel? These aren't like a 1 of 2 prewar GP Alfa or the car than won LeMans/GTCC/BTCC so I'll bet cost is the over-riding factor.

 

[Sven]

Am I on right track or overreacting

twisty - your assumption is probably a good one. Fortunately, you can test the waters by starting with just one side panel. The front is not too terribly difficult to remove.

Can reasonably sound panels usually be removed and reused?

Panels can be reused if carefully removed. Or, sections can be cut out and patch panels installed with the fender either on or off the car. Places like CoupeKing and La Jolla have a collection of used panels they use in their restorations.

Once off then you can assess whether the other panels need to come off. The extent of rust is usually fairly consistent all the way round. There are a few things you can do do assess the "general" rust state of the your coupe before you pull off the fender.

1. Remove the sound deadening material on top of the inner fenders. If there are major issues they will show here.

2. Remove the protective metal panel at the rear of the front wheel wells. If the panel is still intact and in good shape that is a good sign. Clean out this area to inspect undercoating, rust, and/or holes.

3. Check the spare tire well and fuel tank surrounds, floor boards, and pull the outer decorative rocker cover off.

In my case the rust was evident in enough of the above areas along with just all the surface rust you could see on the backsides of door and rear quarter panels (and on the body frame itself), that the only way to get at it all was to pull off all four corners.

The other consideration might be whether you intend to keep the car longterm and what level of restoration you are after. I don't think it makes sense to put a $20k paint job on a car with a questionable rust base. If you have the financial resources then pull it apart, fix/remove the rust. Then you have a car that you can easily sell, will have good value, and heaven forbid, maybe even be able to drive occasionally in the rain (which invariably happens).

If you post some photos of what you uncover then I am sure others will offer up comments on the specific conditions/remedies for your car.

good luck,

 

[John Buchtenkirch]

If your front fenders have rust thru & bubbling where they meet the hood (very typical) I’d say they have to come off to get to the additional rust damage that’s surely in the wheel house / well area. IMO it would be very hard if not impossible to correctly patch rust & apply rust proofing materials in that area with the fenders still on. Usually a “leaving the fender on job” is someone looking for a doctored up cosmetic repair for cheap $$$ so they can sell their rust bucket to the next sucker :evil:.

Body panels can be carefully removed, abrasive blasted and patched with new metal and reinstalled, I do it all the time. Many body men are good at paint & plastic work but not very good at metal work so they will weld in flat panels with no effort to duplicate factory stamping details and the value of the car is reduced because of it, regardless of the fact that the car may be a structurally sound driver at that point. ~ John Buchtenkirch

 

[twistinglane]

Getting the picture - now about rockers?

Appreciation to John Buchtenkirk, Sven, Bfeng, and the Cougar for their thoughts. I guess I'm sold on the idea that if work to restore, should do the job thoroughly. At least in terms of assuring structural integrity and doing repairs that match original. Not talking about needing the original red handled screw drivers:wink: And yes I would like to be able to drive in the occasional rain without heartburn!8)

Front fenders got the most attention here. How about some thoughts on rockers? If there is some rocker (not cover) bubbling/rust through, I'm thinking that means outer structural rockers get removed. But I remember reading that working on rockers can cause problems with straightness of the car. How much of a concern is this? Is there something written on how to handle?

Paul
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/member.php?u=2398

 

[Laldog]

Rockers

Because our coupes don't have the window pillar, I've been told the rocker panel area becomes that much more crucial (structurally).

Similar to the fenders, the rockers can be a hidden mess of rusted metal. Because it is composed of 3 layers, it can become a nice sandwich of corrosion, seemingly designed to promote disintegration (rather than prevent it).

And like most other areas of the coupe, rust starts on the inside of the panels, (allegedly untreated at the factory?) so any evidence of rust on the exterior surely means a lot bigger problems on the next inside layer.

Take the outside rocker covers off , see if there's any bubbling through. Chances are pretty good that if the fenders have rust, the rockers do too.

The good news is that replacement rocker parts are readily available. The bad news is that it's pretty labor intensive. Costly$$

 

[Ed G]

Rocker inspection

Taking the rear seats out and removing the side panels will reveal what's happening in front of the rear wheels in the rockers. Rust forms more readily where there have been welds so the bottom of the pillars are highly susceptible. There are some small holes in the inner rockers under the carpet that would be useful if you had a boroscope. Unless the area behind the front wheels is rusted out giving you access, I think the holes will be the only way to view the A pillar base.

 

[John Buchtenkirch]

The problem is the rocker panels are the equivalent of the frame rails on a car with a chasse, very much a structural member of the car. When you remove them (even partially) there may be very little holding the car together and body alignment can quickly become an issue. Because of that ideally the car should be mounted on some type of collision bench and held on by at least 8 points, 2 at the very front, 2 at the firewall or slightly behind, 2 where the rear suspension cross-member mounts and 2 more at the very rear of the car. Eight carefully placed jack stands could work for the home restorer but you’d likely have to use wedges on top of some of them because jack stands adjust in ½” to ¾” increments. The idea is to have the body so well supported that things can’t move when sections of the body are removed or weakened during the restoration.

Now I will cover the second common problem amateur restorers and even some body men have when installing rocker panels, they shrink the bottom of the car lengthwise ! After that happens the door gaps will never be right, they will taper to being too tight at the bottom :-x. NEVER make any continues vertical welds on rocker panels. Always join the ends of rockers by lapping the panels and using multiple plug welds applied with cool down time between them or replace the entire panel if you can afford new. If you remove a partial part of a rocker you will need to make a sleeve, maybe 8” to 12” long on a brake to back up the vertical cut you made so you can weld it back in with plug welds. AGAIN avoid vertical welds and also gas welding like the plague, gas welding will put too much heat into the metal and cause excessive shrinking. With a mig-welder and some well thought out patient plug welding you’ve got a good chance of not running into alignment problems. When I did heavy collision work I used to pre-stretch the side of the car just a bit to avoid these shrinking problems but I used equipment too expensive for a home shop restoration. I’d observe the door fit before taking the car apart, if it’s good mark & measure between 2 points on the lower A pillar and the rear lower door jamb pinch welds flange that the door gasket grips on so you have a lower length measurement to work from. I’d also only do one side at a time.

It’s been over 20 years since I did a coupe but if I’m remembering correctly the quarter panel covers the rocker panel so you have to remove or cut the bottom off the quarter if you need to replace the full rocker panel. Coupes are very hard & expensive cars to do a rust restoration on, much harder than say a Chevelle that has a frame and an abundance of reasonable after-market parts made for them. I’m still amazed by how well some back yard restorations turn out but unfortunately many fall by the way side so my final comment is GOOD LUCK :smile::smile::smile:. ~ John Buchtenkirch