help: can i have a double electric regulator installed?

deQuincey

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hi, my car came with a damaged alternator, so the original one was changed by the exact reference from bmw

but that new alternator came with a regulator incorporated, see this pic:

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you probably know that all e9,s have a regulator in the electric tray near the battery
see pic:
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so the question is: can i have two regulators in the same system ?, should i by-pass the regulator that is in the tray ? can i maintain both regulatos ?
does it have any effect to have two regulators ?
 
There´s no way you can run two regulators. You can leave the old one in for optical reasons, but it has to be disconnected.

meine liebe freund !

1- are you sure ?, which is the effect you can expect from a double regulated circuit ?

2- how can i disconnect it ? i make this question because i do not know how it is connected, and what cables come and go from it ?, is it regulating only the positive pole ?
 
meine liebe freund !

1- are you sure ?, which is the effect you can expect from a double regulated circuit ?

2- how can i disconnect it ? i make this question because i do not know how it is connected, and what cables come and go from it ?, is it regulating only the positive pole ?

deQuincey:

Are you sure the original regulator - the one next to the battery - is really still connected? Who installed the new, internally-regulated alternator? Ask the installer how they wired things. We can't tell you how to change the wiring on your car, since some modifications have apparently been done, and we don't know what they are.

Is the charging system working? If so, then whoever installed the internally-regulated alternator must have made some wiring changes - as others have written, the system would be unlikely to function if both regulators were somehow competing with each-other.
 
There is no place to attach the two remaining wires from the old regulator to the new alternator, there were three originally held by a plastic plug on each end. There is only the blue idiot light wire from the old regulator and the larger red wire from the battery to the new alternator.
 
deQuincey:

Are you sure the original regulator - the one next to the battery - is really still connected? Who installed the new, internally-regulated alternator? Ask the installer how they wired things. We can't tell you how to change the wiring on your car, since some modifications have apparently been done, and we don't know what they are.

Is the charging system working? If so, then whoever installed the internally-regulated alternator must have made some wiring changes - as others have written, the system would be unlikely to function if both regulators were somehow competing with each-other.

hi jay

i do not really know if the external original regulator is connected and working, i promise to take a look

the charging is working ok, that is sure, because the battery is alive and it is 2 years old !

regards
 
There is no place to attach the two remaining wires from the old regulator to the new alternator, there were three originally held by a plastic plug on each end. There is only the blue idiot light wire from the old regulator and the larger red wire from the battery to the new alternator.

hi chris

i would appreciate a little bit more detailed description of this nice piece of information you gave me,

if you take a look to the pic i posted : you can see two cables, a brown one and a black one (probably not original, so the colours mean nothing)
120220072525.jpg


and in this other pic of the alternator, you can see the third cable (that tiny black cable), that goes from the alternator to the engine (i suppose that is ground (-))
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so i have three cables from-to the alternator

but i know only the ending point of one of them, the one that goes to the nut attached to the engine body, the other two (first pic) are heading the battery area, but i can not tell where precisely, i will check tomorrow

any ideas ?

regards
 
Ignore ground wire for a moment (black but should be brown). You only have two wires so you are not using the original regulator. The cable to battery should be red but your appears to be brown, it is the thickest wire, 12 gauge at least. A smaller 16 gauge (marked D+) wire goes to your charging light in the dash, it might still run through old regulator but it will be blue as it heads towards dash.
 
Ignore ground wire for a moment (black but should be brown). You only have two wires so you are not using the original regulator. The cable to battery should be red but your appears to be brown, it is the thickest wire, 12 gauge at least. A smaller 16 gauge (marked D+) wire goes to your charging light in the dash, it might still run through old regulator but it will be blue as it heads towards dash.

that is really helping me a lot ! thanks

1- so my brown cable is going to the battery, i suppose to the positive pole (+)

question: in which units is the 12 gauge definition ?, how can i know which diameter in mm ?

2- then the other cable is supposed to go to the dash, right, what is true is that the light works in my dash for the first seconds of the start up of the car

thank you very much !:-D
 
meine liebe freund !

1- are you sure ?, which is the effect you can expect from a double regulated circuit ?

2- how can i disconnect it ? i make this question because i do not know how it is connected, and what cables come and go from it ?, is it regulating only the positive pole ?

I can´t really help you with the connections, especially since you´re wiring seems to be anything but stock by now, but running two regulators is a bad idea for "logical" reasons. They would both be trying to do the same thing: regulate the output of the alternator by regulating the ingoing feed. So their actions would overlap or even sometimes cancel each other and give you quite a complex oscillating circuit. No good could come of that. At the very best, if one had a stable lower threshold than the other, one of them would not do anything at all. But that´s not guaranteed. Especially as the one in the alternator is a new, electronic, transistor regulator and the external one is an older, probably non-transistor type.

But, I´m guessing: the external one is probably disconneted by now anyway. When you put in the new alternator, it simply didn´t have the connections for the old regulator, so the new alternator is probably only connected to the feed wire (runs through the idiot light (that´s acutally not only the idiot light, but also an important resistor in the feed)). See if can can find / read with a multimeter which of the three wires into the old regulator is still connected to anything.

If in doubt, just pull the plug from the old regulator and if the car still charges, just leave it off (or clean out the internals of the old regulator and plug the plug back in if you care for the optics)
 
today i have checked one strange thing,

i had my car iddling, and then i switched off the current desconector, that switches off the negative pole of the battery

ok, the engine continued iddling

the question: is this normal ?, shouldn´t i expect the engine to stop ?

can this be due to the strange conections of the alternator-regulator-battery ?

regards
 
If I understood your question correctly, you

1) had the engine idling
2) disconnected the wire to the "-" battery terminal
3) the car continued running

That's normal. In fact, it verifies that your alternator is working. The alternator generates the proper voltage with or without the battery. You really only need the battery to start the car.

Now, people will tell you not to do this (e.g., disconnect the battery on a running car). They say it can cause voltage spikes, harm the electrical system, etc. Probably true on a modern car with computers. But on a carbureted e9 it doesn't seem to cause any damage. What you observed is perfectly normal.
 
If I understood your question correctly, you

1) had the engine idling
2) disconnected the wire to the "-" battery terminal
3) the car continued running

That's normal. In fact, it verifies that your alternator is working. The alternator generates the proper voltage with or without the battery. You really only need the battery to start the car.

Now, people will tell you not to do this (e.g., disconnect the battery on a running car). They say it can cause voltage spikes, harm the electrical system, etc. Probably true on a modern car with computers. But on a carbureted e9 it doesn't seem to cause any damage. What you observed is perfectly normal.

thank you so much jay,

but then, my disconector device (switchs off the ground):

1- is OK for avoiding the battery to discharge in a prolongued garage stay

2- is NOK for stopping the car current in an accidental situation when the engine is still on, so ...which will be the correct device for doing this ?, or is it an stupid question, and there is no need of doing that ?

regards
 
#2=use the key.. If you can still get to the connector in the engine room after an accident, you´ll probably be even more likely to be able to just use the key. An accident that causes a short in a circuit that continues to feed the ignition, disabling the key switch but still leaves the engine running (clutch pressed before impact, not slipped from the clutch at the impact, at least one rear wheel free wheeling or car in neutral, radiator not pushed in far enough to block the fan/waterpump, ac-compressor, alternator or main pulley is so incredibly unlikely...

The quick disconnect is very handy though in case an accident causes a short in the engine room on one of the non-fused, non-ignition-switched lines. You could stop an electrical fire.... if you can still open the hood...
That´s why some modern cars have something like a quick-disconnect on the main 12 Volt feed directly at the battery that is disconnected by a small pyrotechical device (as in an airbag) and is activated through a crash sensor. There is a sperate emergency circuit that feeds the flashers, restraint systems, lights and communication devices (phone). Saw that in my E90. Very clever...

#1 probably not needed either. The electrics on the E9 are so simple: unless you have a short / wrong wiring or a light that stays on (trunk), the battery only feeds the clock (and maybe the memory of a radio). A healthy 55AH battery can feed the clock for about half a year and probably still start the car... Just turn the ignition off, pulg your multimeter in line of the ground strap from the battery, switch to current and see what it draws. If the electrics are healthy, it´ll be hard to register anything. Thus no switch needed.

The only other emergency shutdown I´d think of would be a crash switch for an electrical fuel pump (if retrofitted). On the carbed cars, if you´re running the mechanical pump and have an accident: no worries, normally the crash stops the engine and that stops the pump, thus no further gas is pumped and can leak (only what´s in the carbs and lines).
If you retrofit an electric pump on a carbed car (worse if you fit it near the tank in the back), have an accident that stops the engine (as most severe accidents will), a fuel line may rupture or be torn off, the car may be on the side or turned over, reversing the function of the valves in the carbs, you´ll be pumping gas into the accident until you turn the key. Let´s hope, you still can AND remember to.

On the injected cars, the fuel pump relay will turn of the pump as a function of the engine stopping (through the engine management)

When retrofitting an electric pump to a carbed car, I´d highly recommend installing a fuel pump fuse with a crash sensor (available through motor sport suppliers).

But I believe you´re using the mechanical pump...

A quick disconnect on the battery is also very usefull for maintenance. There´s some pretty exposed high amp unfused 12 volt lines and connectors in the engine room that are not switched through the ignition. One on the starter motor and one from the alternator to the battery. Both poorly covered (if at all). The alternator connection is actually very easy to short even by only pulling the oil filter (housing). I recommend disconnecting the battery even for something as simple as an oil change. Or at least the quick disconnect is handy to stop the electrical fire quickly if you didn´t disconnect before...
 
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but then, my disconector device (switchs off the ground):

1- is OK for avoiding the battery to discharge in a prolongued garage stay

2- is NOK for stopping the car current in an accidental situation when the engine is still on, so ...which will be the correct device for doing this ?, or is it an stupid question, and there is no need of doing that ?

#1 - Yes, that is an appropriate use for the switch

#2 - As you observed, if the engine is still running, disconnecting the battery won't shut it off. Turning off the ignition key is the simplest way to shut off the engine! Race cars often have an emergency electrical disconnect so that a short created by the impact doesn't generate heat or spark to start a fire. So, I suppose after an accident it might be prudent to disconnect the battery. The challenge might be opening the hood open to access the battery after a front end collision. Race cars have these switches accessable from the outside of the car.
 
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