Help with insurance valuation - recent sales?

ablank135

ablank135

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Fellow coupers, my '73 CSi is coming out of restoration at the Werkshop in the next few weeks, and my attention has turned to the exciting world of insurance. And I could use the forum's collective wisdom.

I know I'll never get coverage at an amount that equals my all-in costs over the past year, but my underwriter is asking for any documented sales of high-value CSis that indicates real market value. Think $50k-plus. The only reference he can currently find in this range is one at the BMW museum, which sold for $48k. (BTW, Hagerty's valuation engine only recognizes CSis from 1974 and 1975.)

Anyone remember such a $$$ sale, and can direct me to a link or auction site? I know we've lamented the soft market for Coupes in other posts, but I didn't anything more recent or specific.

I thank you all in advance.
 
calshamus said:
Can't you pay for "stated value" with rates charged according to that value?
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Getting the underwriter to accept a higher valuation is the challenge.

We will eventually get to an "agreed value" policy. But the underwriter won't agree to a value unless there is market-based proof (documented sales) of that value. For instance, he'll easily "agree" to a value of $25k, but if I'm asking for coverage at twice that value, he lacks evidence that any CSi has ever sold for that amount. That's regardless of restoration quality, investment, etc.
 
I just had my car stripped and repainted. I took photos and Hagerty agreed to a stated value of $40K
Some who have seen my car say I should go back and try for a higher stated value.
From what I have seen from the Werkshop, $45 - $50K would not be unreasonable.

Call Hagerty and speak with someone
 
Thanks, Stan. I may ultimately bail on using this particular insurer in favor of one with more underwriting latitude, but for the sake of keeping the entire household under one carrier, I'm trying to make this work first.

The simplest solution for me at the moment is to find documented $50k-plus CSi sales...IF they exist.
 
I agree - Coupe King is the place to start. They have documented sales that exceed $50-60k and also thoughts on an insurance broker. It is in everyone's interest, including obviously the CK guys, to promote transparency and support higher valuations on the coupes. Peter and Erik at Coupe King are very helpful/knowledgeable, follow this issue closely, and have definitely sold cars that support higher valuations. The car I am currently having built there would certainly support such a higher valuation.

You can PM me.
 
This depends on your insurer in some respects, but I got American Classic to agree a $75k value based on photos and receipts. While this is not equal to what I have into the car (nor what I would be willing to sell it for, which at this point is $infinity), it seems to be a decent insurance value for a fully restored non-CSL.
 
JDJ said:
I agree - Coupe King is the place to start. They have documented sales that exceed $50-60k and also thoughts on an insurance broker. It is in everyone's interest, including obviously the CK guys, to promote transparency and support higher valuations on the coupes. Peter and Erik at Coupe King are very helpful/knowledgeable, follow this issue closely, and have definitely sold cars that support higher valuations. The car I am currently having built there would certainly support such a higher valuation.

You can PM me.
Click to expand...

Thanks. PM sent.
 
Suggestion

After years of procrastination, I finally got my coupe appraised this year and provided a copy to the insurance company as the basis for the stated value and for their records in case of an accident.

Of course, getting the appraisal # to where I thought it should be was challenging. He started at $13K (it was a nice try) and I had to cajole him up from there. In the end, I pretty much wrote the appraisal but it gave me peace of mind that it was done and documented.

Regardless of how you get to your stated value level, you should get an appraisal. I'm sure the Werkshop lads can put you in touch with someone they use and who knows Coupes and the current market. Don't be afraid to challenge and not "take their first offer".

Good luck!
 
Price discovery project

Having just gone through this process, it seems like the E9 is mispriced. I did quite a bit of research and, while we will all agree that there is almost always a spread between a finished car that has been done properly - people will almost never pay replacement cost when they buy a restored car - and the more expensive process of restoring a car from scratch, the spread on these cars is, IMO irrational.

When i began my research on this board, i came away with a number of impressions:

1) it is very easy to make expensive mistakes evaluating these cars and buy a large undiscovered rust issue, for example, that is borderline fatal;

2) there are a dearth of qualified experts WITH INTEGRITY from which to buy these cars at least in the US;

3) many people on this board who are very knowledgeable about the cars left me with the impression that paying $50,000 plus for a fully sorted out coupe was a gross overpay;

4) there is little to no auction liquidity of top shelf cars as there is with say long hood porsche 911s;

5) most deals are therefore private party;

6) the quality and range of options on these cars varies more than it does for other classics (perhaps because there is no premium for originality);

I then went through the process of pricing out all manner of restorations from buying an unpainted shell to cars that needed upgrades etc. They don't pencil if you really want a great car. So if you're like me and you have no ability to assess rust issues on a car like this and the mantra from smart old guys like Murray Fowler is to "buy the best one you can afford" , a sentiment that I also heard from HBChris, another thoughtful and knowledgeable owner, as a buyer you have a dilemma.

Do you "overpay" for a sorted out coupe from a reputable shop, or do you wait indefinitely and try to "steal" something from a private party?

I buy and sell intellectual property for a living (patents) and that market while completely intangible and more complex works better than this one. I think that the group here needs to take control of this process and approach the trading of these cars differently. This is the marketplace for information on these cars and there is no price discovery on this board to our collective detriment as owners.

We need a database of the cars that tracks price, options, condition, who restored or worked on the car etc. I would happily help with this project if people, even on a blind basis, are willing to contribute timely accurate information. It will only work if everyone participates as freely as they do with all of the other great information on this board. These cars are selling for a lot more than people think and wewill get a market lift through transparency if we cooperate and don't tear down our own value on this board.

Thoughts?
 
My 74 CSi, good++ shape, 8 yr old polaris respray, leather good, looks original - did not talk about engine mods, suspension, exhaust, etc. was just bumped up to $35K with one call to my State Farm agent. They even let me take it to driver's schools.

It is of course, bundled with all our other policies.
 
JDJ said:
...

I buy and sell intellectual property for a living (patents) and that market while completely intangible and more complex works better than this one.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Intriguing. I guess patents are easier to price because they do not rust.

I like the idea of us becoming the market makers, the NASDAQ of coupes, and maybe even
use our extraterritorial members to do some price fixing. Heck, we have Andy in Vienna, the home of OPEC...
 
ablank135 said:
Thanks, Stan. I may ultimately bail on using this particular insurer in favor of one with more underwriting latitude, but for the sake of keeping the entire household under one carrier, I'm trying to make this work first.

The simplest solution for me at the moment is to find documented $50k-plus CSi sales...IF they exist.
Click to expand...

I gave of up on the notion of single carrier years ago. However, I seem to have forgotten to tell my insurance carrier I switched to someone else. Just let them assume I no longer had the vehicle or whatever...

Beyond that, my weekend car carrier (Hagerty) covers 5 vehicles and I have never had an issue or question on agreed value. My coupe sits currently at $40K. And should an incident occur they will do a significantly better job of taking care of the problem. There is no "education" requirement...they get it and take care to see that things are done right including support in finding rare parts if necessary.

Oh...did I mention they were a fraction of the price?

Win...win...win.
 
FWIW....my Agave has an agreed to value with Hagerty of $55K that frankly, now feels under-valued. I supplied Hagerty with pics of restoration at CoupeKing and receipts of upgrades work performed at VRS1.

Clearly, there will always be a debate of the value of coupes that come to market, but the costs of restoration & repair are more demonstrable to classic car companies and hence... easier to negotiate.
 
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