Intake and Strokers

decoupe

(deceased)
Messages
1,333
Reaction score
16
Location
Alberta, Canada
I would appreciate some insight into a couple of things I'm considering.

L Jet vs Motronic Intake Manifold:
I converted my 3.5 from carb to EFI last winter using the intake manifold from an 81 528i. Everything went well. Since then I have picked up an intake from an 89 735i and a Tii brake booster. I've been told that using the equal length of the motronic intake runners versus the quite substantially unequal lengths of the L Jet runners (but larger diameter) will have advantages in power. Does this seem reasonable?

Strokers:
Can someone explain what this term means? I think that this is increasing the displacement by changing the stroke not the bore. How?

Thanks
 
I would appreciate some insight into a couple of things I'm considering.

L Jet vs Motronic Intake Manifold:
I converted my 3.5 from carb to EFI last winter using the intake manifold from an 81 528i. Everything went well. Since then I have picked up an intake from an 89 735i and a Tii brake booster. I've been told that using the equal length of the motronic intake runners versus the quite substantially unequal lengths of the L Jet runners (but larger diameter) will have advantages in power. Does this seem reasonable?

Strokers:
Can someone explain what this term means? I think that this is increasing the displacement by changing the stroke not the bore. How?

Thanks

Intake design is a very complex and multifaceted problem. The largest problem is designing an intake with a high efficiency at large RPM ranges; the best intakes are designed to operate in a ~1K RPM band, rather than the ~5K RPM band you use on a daily basis.

In general, equal-length runners are good because it evens out the air flow to each cylinder. Then there's the issue of runner design, which you hit upon. Longer runners typically improve the low-end flow, but restrict the top end, partially due to laminar and turbulent flow effects. This is why most suggest using the E21 320i intake runners with the L-Jet manifold; they are longer, which gives better low-end torque response.

The second part of an intake is the plenum. The plenum is the volume after the throttle but before the runners in our cars. A larger plenum volume helps even out the pressure going to each runner, but also acts as more of a drag at higher RPMs depending on how the intake to the plenum is set up.

The best manifolds also include internal structures called velocity stacks. These are special inlets (usually positioned in the plenum acting as the runner inlet) designed to improve the flow of air into the plenum by altering the boundary and flow characteristics at the inlet. In most race cars, they look like tiny trumpets. They have been a standard feature in BMW M-cars since the start.

So, the net is that the 3.5 Motronic intake performs better than the stock L-Jet intake. It is very possible to make a better intake, however. Most of the Alpha-N guys have a great manifold based on the old Gr. 2 / 5 racing engines.

Stroking, as you mentioned, is specifically increasing the stroke without altering the bore. If both are changed, the motor is "bored and stroked". Both techniques are means to increase the displacement. The stroker uses a modified crankshaft to increase the stroke. In our case, the E3 3.3Li crankshaft would be a "stroker" part, as the crankshaft has a longer stroke than the original B34/35 crankshaft. The S38B38 crankshaft also works, but is decidedly expensive. The downside to stroking is the increase in forces on the piston. The piston has farther to go in the same amount of time, which means the piston linear velocity is higher, which places more stress on the various fasteners used in the piston, such as the wrist pins and bolts linking the two connecting rod sections.

Boring and stroking are used to provide different engine responses in addition to increasing the displacement. For example, the M90 feels very different from the M30B35, even though they are almost the same engine aside from the bore and stroke configuration. The M90 is an oversquare engine (bore>stroke) and makes excellent horsepower, even at high RPMs. The M30B35 is almost a square engine (bore=stroke) so each revolution makes more torque, as the engine is able to use more of the combustion pressure to push the pistons. (the pressure imparts a higher impulse to the piston since it is imparting the force over a longer distance) The tradeoff is the M30B35 makes less horsepower at high RPMs due to the longer stroke. (the combustion pressure has less time to impart enough impulse to the piston due to the high RPM, so the pressure on the piston is no longer approximately constant over the whole stroke as it is at lower RPMs) Having a bigger bore means the combustion pressure is spread over a wider area, giving more torque at high RPMs.
 
It should be noted that Carl and the other guys, when they do a Motronic 1.3 swap, generally advise using the modified L-Jet manifold. The additional low-end torque from the 320i runners helps in a daily-driven coupe. The problem is there are several small, but tricky changes that you have to make to the L-Jet manifold to make it work with Motronic 1.3, including quite a bit of re-wiring.
 
"It should be noted that Carl and the other guys, when they do a Motronic 1.3 swap, generally advise using the modified L-Jet manifold."

I wonder if this is to maintain a more CS period correct appearance with better performance but still not equal to the motronic intake?

Interesting to note that the throttle body of the L Jet has a larger diameter throat than the motornic by a couple of mm. Assuming I do this second conversion sometime I'll continue using the L Jet throttle body (making whatever mods necessary to mate to the plenum) because all of the linkages and electronics are in place (aftermarket SDS not L Jet or motronic). I don't expect any gains based on the throat diameter but also hope there are no negatives either.

Doug
 
"It should be noted that Carl and the other guys, when they do a Motronic 1.3 swap, generally advise using the modified L-Jet manifold."

I wonder if this is to maintain a more CS period correct appearance with better performance but still not equal to the motronic intake?

Interesting to note that the throttle body of the L Jet has a larger diameter throat than the motornic by a couple of mm. Assuming I do this second conversion sometime I'll continue using the L Jet throttle body (making whatever mods necessary to mate to the plenum) because all of the linkages and electronics are in place (aftermarket SDS not L Jet or motronic). I don't expect any gains based on the throat diameter but also hope there are no negatives either.

Doug

Why go SDS? A WAR chipped Motronic gives you complete fuel and timing controls using the stock DME and wiring. Why re-invent the wheel when you already have the cart?

As far as the intake, I remember seeing some flow charts showing that the modified L-Jet manifold performed better than the stock B35 manifold. This was a few years ago at this point, and I haven't seen much since. Perhaps someone else can chime in, someone with a flow bench?
 
Why go SDS? A WAR chipped Motronic gives you complete fuel and timing controls using the stock DME and wiring. Why re-invent the wheel when you already have the cart?

Too late - already done. All I had was the 528i plumbing - no electrics. I also wanted the most flexibility of engine management and tuning controls for future considerations. I'd be interested in the flow data as well.

Doug
 
I'll play along.....

Let's see.. L-Jet vs. 3.5 intakes:

The L-jet flows better at higher velocities. There is marginal difference at lower rpms- 2-3% in a narrow range. Is it worth it for 5ftlbs of torque at 2000 rpm? That's a personal choice.

Even extruding, cutting in half, smoothing, and rewelding are not going to give you big gains in and of itself. Many, many, have tried.:oops:

Given the poll results a short while back here... L-Jet manifold rules.. yep it's asthetics.

Believe in one thing... balance..

P.S. Carbs rule too.:-D
 
Before I do any switch over to the motronic I'll try to find a set of 320i runners and see what difference there is on a back to back dyno comparison to the stock 528i set. Results will be posted this spring/summer.

Doug
 
One comment here- the m90 engine is rated 218 at 5200 rpm, the m30b35 208 is at 6000 or so?
I have the numbers at the shop but from memory and having dyno info on several m90 engines- they are a low reving engine.
 
I apparently have a 3.5l Euro "L" Block with a 535i head. No idea of the crank, stroke or bore. Does this make it a M30B35?

Doug
 
The "L" or M90 engine was different in a few ways- the head and block were "Siamese" for the cooling openings in between each cylinder, The bore was 93.4, only made for Jetronic.
 
I apparently have a 3.5l Euro "L" Block with a 535i head. No idea of the crank, stroke or bore. Does this make it a M30B35?

Doug

Nope. The M30B35 was used in the last M30-based cars, so the E32 735 and the E34 535, as well as certain models of very late E24 635 and E23 735. The majority of the differences between the M30B34 (used in E28, E24, and E23) are in the head design. The M30B35 head flows better and has larger valves. It also has a hotter cam than the M30B34.

As sfdon pointed out, the M90 used the same bore/stroke configuration as the M88/S38, but mated it with a stock M30B34 head, then used pistons to reach a CR of (depending on where you read) 9:1 or 10:1.
 
One of the great things about the BMW's of this era is the ability to mix and combine the various blocks, heads, intake manifolds, throttle bodies, ignition systems and engine management etc. The downside is that with that many variables the outcomes are different from any of the originals. Not necessarily bad and maybe even better but unless you are really knowledgeable or have access to lots of anecdotal information (neither of which I am or have) all you can do is ask or experiment. Hence my question and appreciation for all of the responses. Free quick information for me to turn into knowledge - hopefully.

So I have an m90 block with a 535i head and a 282 "shrick pattern" cam. Any way to tell which version of 535i head (starting with the e12 and ending with???) without pulling it? B34 or B35?

Doug
 
Head ID

Doug,

On the left side of the head, near the front is the ID for the year. It's circular with two numers stamped/ raised in it. The general rule being B34 heads ran from 81-86. 87, up. Should be B35s.

One other note- the b34 head had a smaller chamber which raised the compression maybe 1/2 point compared to the later head with larger valves.

It should be noted that there are several here with M90 L blocks and are desireable. The debate between B35 and L blocks continues.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the dates and numbers. My car is at a welding shop soI can't satisfy my curiosity about the head. I have an add on the e21 site for 320i intake runners so that will also have to wait.

Doug
 
One of the easier ways to tell between the B34 and B35 heads is how the spot where the fuel pump went (on the stock E9s) looks. The B34 still has a hole there and a flat, milled section, like something bolts up there. The B35 has some eraser-shaped milled parts there, but no hole.
 
Back
Top