Krytox and other lubricants?

[MMercury]

Encountered a race mechanic assembling Porsche axle shafts. He was using a specially marked bucket of grease. He volunteered it was Krytox. Said that since using it for a few years, his team has avoided many mechanical failures.

Name and product lines have been around for a few years. I have not used them (at least I don't think so), mostly because I did not think it necessary. However, a little reading suggests maybe some of these products or product variants lives up to the hype. Not trying to create any controversy, yet I wonder, if these products were so good, why aren't they found in more garages or at least mentioned more on these boards?

Anyone with any field experience with Krytox or some of the other so-called "space-age-super-lubes" e.g., Krytox or Tungsten Disulfide, etc.??

FWIW, it seems that GM, VW and others have used it as a rubber/weatherstrip lubricant. Others have apparently used it as a leather dressing.

http://www.bearingworks.com/technical_data/lubricants.php

http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/products/krytox/krytox.html

http://www.tmcindustries.com/lubricants.html

http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000483.html

http://www.lub-o-seal.com/products/distributed/distributed.html

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/assets/images/auto_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.dupont.com/Lubricants/en_US/uses_apps/industries/auto_squeak_rattle.html&usg=__KU7lm8C6tfe7Ei0Ri6KTg3pErzA=&h=741&w=1061&sz=74&hl=en&start=51&um=1&tbnid=wpPXo4tz2gNFQM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkrytox%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D40%26um%3D1

Unrelated Pretty half shaft:

 

[Ed G]

Using "Krytox" is like saying you use Shell, Castrol or Mobil etc. Each company has a line of various lubricants designed for different applications. If you're targeting a problem area, research the manufacturer's specific specialty product and weigh the merits and sales pitch. You didn't say which Krytox product was being used but I would guess that these Porsche transaxle shafts see a little more stress than average and a specialty product may be necessary to enhance performance.

I don't think you hear about many "super lubes" being used here simply because they're not that necessary in an automotive application (e9). A few tout the benefits of some Redline products used in transmissions here, and there is no doubt there are merits to using this higher end product, especially in components that may be compromised or pushing the envelope of their intended capacity in torque, speed and duty cycle. Synchros can get finicky. Some of the track crowd may have more to offer here.

Bottom line is-

Keep it lubed with the right product, keep the lube free from contamination (dirt, grit, water), keep it cool (ideally less than 200F), and change it as prescribed. Check those seals and CV joint boots for cracks- you'll save lots of aggravation and $$$.

Synthetics and other special formulations are usually engineered to outlast standard petroleum products, but their formulation doesn't mean they are impervious to contamination. If I used synthetic motor oil, I'd feel comfortable extending my change interval a few thousand miles, but I certainly wouldn't extend it to 10,000 like some advertise(call me overcautious). I'd prefer to change out a high quality straight petroleum product more often along with the filter, than a synthetic. I like clean.

With this said, you can certainly take advantage of new technology in some of the many other specialized applications buried in your e9. Stuff that rarely gets addressed and requires a long shelf life like door mechanisms, window motors, control cables etc...



Have fun!

 

[chicane]

Is that half shaft from an E36/46?

 

[MMercury]

Is that half shaft from an E36/46?

Pictured is Porsche half shaft. Polished surface caught my attention.

On one bulletin board, posters discuss how specialty greases like NEO and Krytox supposedly go far to prevent CV- half shaft failures. (There is also some mention of actually polishing joint surfaces too.) :wink:

 

[Ed G]

Tungsten disulfide looks similar to Moly (MoSo2). They're both lubricating solids good for extreme pressure. If you looked at them under a microscope they look like a deck of cards. The card-like crystals are very strong, slippery and provide a good boundary layer between the sliding surfaces. There are formulations combined with mineral oils that are targeted to enhance gear performance suggesting the crystals can fill micro-pits of damaged gears. Because they're so slippery and fall into the category of extreme pressure lubricant, they can't be used in a manual transmission where the synchros depend on the tractive forces of unfortified petroleum oil. Tungsten's rated higher in load capacity, temperature range and friction. Up till recently, Moly's been much less expensive. Being solid lubricants, they're typically not good for higher speed applications(>1000 RPM or so) but in the case of something like a CV Joint it's probably an excellent performer. They excel when used to prevent fretting corrosion which happens to mating surfaces that move slightly, slowly, or rock against one another with high compression loads like a keyway, or the articulating joint of heavy earthmoving equipment, etc...asleep yet???

 

[MMercury]

Using "Krytox" is like saying you use Shell, Castrol or Mobil etc. Each company has a line of various lubricants designed for different applications. If you're targeting a problem area, research the manufacturer's specific specialty product and weigh the merits and sales pitch. . . . .

I don't think you hear about many "super lubes" being used here simply because they're not that necessary in an automotive application (e9). A few tout the benefits of some Redline products used in transmissions here, and there is no doubt there are merits to using this higher end product, especially in components that may be compromised or pushing the envelope of their intended capacity in torque, speed and duty cycle. Synchros can get finicky. Some of the track crowd may have more to offer here."
. . . ."

Thanks for the response.

I agree that even the most expensive and slippery recipe for success can be spoiled by a little contamination. I also agree that, except for maybe banana peels, no one lubricant fits all applications, sizes and functions. (Not to disprove this notion, some may nevertheless find this comparative grease “study” interesting: http://www.sandsmachine.com/grease_t.htm )

You mention Redline and synchros. Neither MTL nor MT-90 made any difference for two hard-shifting Getrag crunch boxes. Changing to D4 ATF made what seemed like 100 grit feel like 2000 grit on butter. Can't say whether it was the D4 or the ATF. The point being, that every once in a while, another product may work better than the conventional wisdom's old reliable.

I deliberately broadened the inquiry to include the entire Krytox line (greases and oils) hoping to learn from anyone who used any of it. This was the reason for attaching all of the links.

The unchallenged advertising “suggests” Krytox grease prevents wear and galling over a much wider temperature span (-50F - +600F) than other greases. Then, there are “suggested” dirt repellence and dielectric qualities, not to mention its adherence to base metal. Taken to its logical extreme, suspension, steering and driveline component life might benefit from this stuff. Of course, all of this comes at a hefty price tag - suppressing my natural inclination toward experimentation. (Some of the discussions describe reclaiming used lubricant as it is still viable.)

Again, I was only curious at discerning fact from legend - and not attempting to proselytize. (Amsoil, Redline, Valvoline, Wesson, RexLard, and many other products exist that, given certain limitations, function as advertised or put the sizzle on the griddle. :wink

Another lubricant that piqued my curiosity is tungsten disulfide. One linked site describes this substance as “one of the most lubricious substances in world” . . . offering excellent dry lubricity (COF: 0.03) “unmatched to any other substance, including Graphite or Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2).”

FWIW, thanks again.

 

[MMercury]

Tungsten disulfide looks similar to Moly (MoSo2). They're both lubricating solids good for extreme pressure.
. . . .
They excel when used to prevent fretting corrosion which happens to mating surfaces that move slightly, slowly, or rock against one another with high compression loads like a keyway, or the articulating joint of heavy earthmoving equipment, etc...asleep yet???

Nope! (Besides, didn't JohnDeere and Cat spec sheets specify no decaffeinated-GL5 grease?)

I wasn't thinking about dumping the particulates into the trans (see other post). Although, there are several products with similar names sold for that purpose (molykote? molylube?). I was thinking more along the lines of steering and suspension and (maybe multipiece driveshaft). I wonder if it couldn't substitute for the hypoid lube that leaks out of some older steering boxes. Not that it really matters, but a recent spate of idler bush R&R's made me ponder the best lubricant available. If what the factory used decades ago - worked, maybe some of the newer products work even better? (I dumped my leather fan belt - months ago!)

 

[Honolulu]

some bits of info

An acquaintance was involved in endurance racing 2002s at Nelson Ledges and other places. It seems 02s can experience rear stub axle shaft failure under prolonged extreme loading. The team drilled the surrounding hub, installed a zerk, then filled and replenished the fitting during pit stops with (I think) Krytox. No stub failure for them. I thought Krytox was a single item, but the above suggests there may be several products sold under that name...?

Second: I'm onboard with the recommendation to use a lube containing MOS2 (molybdenum sulfide) in keyways and such, where galling from high-load, slight movement situations can lead to failure. BMW K-series motorcycle shaft drives are one such application; I think there are also some R-series where this applies also. BMW's factory recommended lubricants (they changed them over the years) have apparently had one thing in common: they don't lubricate well, and there are many instances of shaft spline, clutch hub and/or final drive failure. It seems, from discussion of the K-bike board I'm on, that a product which verifiably contains a high percentage of MOS2 is required, and superior to any of the factory recommended lubes. The preference is Honda Moly which has 60% MOS2 in it. There are a few others that qualify similarly, but you have to read the label pretty carefully to know what the actual MOS2 content is. Sometimes an MSDS sheet will tell you. Honda Moly is readily available at Honda dealerships, sorry I don't have the P/N handy. A little goes a long long way.

 

[Ed G]

If you want high moly content, go with Dow Corning Molykote "Gn paste". Available at most Bearing and Industrial Drive Distributors like Motion Industries, Kaman Industrial, Bearing Distributors etc... They probably represent Krytox as well.

 

[BonitaCS]

I've used Krytox for a small bevel gear box in an aerospace application. We used it mostly for its extreme temperature range. They say it's called Krytox because you cry when you buy it... A small one pound tub cost $235.00 and that tub would have been just enough to do all 4 of my CV joints.