Matching Numbers

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Seahawk

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In the Porsche 356 world, matching numbers for a particular car, engine and transmission means a lot.

The same or E9's?

I spent the morning with a 71 3.0csi that was originally a 4 speed, now upgraded to a 5 speed. The car is rough yet I think doable - rust is reasonable.

I am not planning on a nut and bolt resto...as I plan the costs, how important are matching numbers?
 
Not very important, many coupes now have a 3.5. Many no longer have the original head either as they were prone to overheating. Mine got a factory replacement decades ago. More important is the rust, even if it looks doable you will find twice the amount you expect.
 
Due to the rust, overheating issues, and performance upgrades, many remaining coupes are not "numbers matching", mine included.

While the most expensive coupes are very, very original, there is not a huge hit on price due to modifications. Some people prefer a coupe that has been updated with FI, 5 speed OD, or a bump in displacement because these changes make it a better driving car.
 
Numbers matching means very little to me. Original paint on the other hand would be very desirable . My Coupe has neither. Rust free (or close to it) and period correct running gear are what I'd be most attracted to and willing to pay for.
 
Excellent.

Thanks. The car is rough, needs a lot but is a project I want to take on.
 
I think there will always be someone willing to pay a premium for originality, especially as these cars become desired by a broader base and typical collector - it happens in other marques. But like the others said, at this point condition is pretty much everything.
 
Seahawk said:
Excellent.

Thanks. The car is rough, needs a lot but is a project I want to take on.
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I have never enjoyed looking at or riding in or even working on a car more because it was a matching numbers car but some people seem to obsess over it. Thank God here tasteful updates & performance modifications are pretty much well accepted so I feel comfortable here (thanks guys). I bought my coupe because it still has the original front fenders and is pretty much rust free. I never even checked the numbers on my car because I knew the slush box tranny was history, a boat anchor. I strongly suggest that you post some photos (particularly of the strut towers as viewed from the engine compartment) of this coupe you’re interested in, rust repairs can run into tens of thousands of dollars very quickly on these cars, unfortunately many of them just aren’t worth fixing. This suggestion is coming from a structural body man with 40+ years in the business, it was much cheaper for me to pay more for a solid car. ~ John Buchtenkirch
 
I agree...the point to my post and question was squarely in the make/buy equation, due diligence in a make of car I am not as familiar with as Porsche's

At the price point for this car, I can part out the bits and make it worth the adventure. Or I will make an irrational decision to keep and restore it. I'll post pictures tomorrow.
 
Most of us will obsess more about red handled screw drivers and the condition of the engine bay. Matching numbers is not on our collective radar.
 
Well, I pulled the trigger...the car is rough but solid. If I missed the mark, I'll have no regrets, know when to pull off target and reassess. The worse that will happen is that I will learn a lot about a 3.0CSI.

I am putting together my four year plan:)

I'll go back down in a month or so and bring the car here. I have a farm with a nice equipment shop and then the real CSI (Crime Scene Investigation) will begin.

Sorry for the bad pun!
 
Stan said:
Most of us will obsess more about red handled screw drivers and the condition of the engine bay. Matching numbers is not on our collective radar.
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That's for sure Stan!!! God post.

I think, when replacing vital parts of your E9 like engine or gearbox....

That will out of question gives you theoretical an "Frankensteiner"
Right or wrong?

I think the Porsche guys are right. Untouched Porsche is much more worth than an "Frankensteiner"

I must ask you guys, how many of you have your E9 in totally original condition?
 
Congrads Seahawk
Post pictures as to where you are starting your adventure!
 
tmason said:
Congrads Seahawk
Post pictures as to where you are starting your adventure!
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I will. Collecting my thoughts now.

I apologize if my question about matching numbers came off wrong...I promise I am not that Pcar guy. My 356 is a Notchback or goodness sake.

Numbers matching, of course :p

It was a question, not a value judgement. What matters to some is inconsequential to others. On to the 3.0, a challenge I relish.
 
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To Stefan--i beg to differ--

that a TASTEFULLY modified E-9 fitted with all BMW and Alpina parts will suffer in its value.

In my 40+ years of E-9 ownership, unlike Porschephiles, matching numbers and untouched originality have shown me litte adverse effect on their resale value of E-9's to over 2 score of buyers with whom I have dealt.

My own BLUMAX is a Franken whatever but a serious collector who regularly shows his cars at Pebble, Quail and Concorso made an offer of $60K for him almost 3 years ago. My real life observation is that history of ownership and a well documented provenance will have a greater positive effect than observance to rigorous originality.

IMHO
 
Lets face it...

If you could actually find two cars of equal finish, color and quality - the numbers matching all original car will probably be worth more. This is always a red herring argument because there are really no good comparisons.

I'm pretty sure that if I owned blumax it wouldn't be worth near as much, you have to admit it's a unique car/situation. Likewise, I'm guessing my early CSL's value would suffer greatly if I got rid of the original engine and dropped a 3.5 stroker motor in it with modern fuel injection, added A/C and power windows and maybe a sunroof. No matter how well these mods were executed, I'm guessing the market would not respond positively.

That being said, I'm glad there's a healthy market for both original and non-orignal E9s. Actually the Porsche crowd is not that much different, there are some pretty healthy sums being paid for non-original early 911s and 356s if they are well executed mods in period flavor with added performance.

To each their own- it's all good if we're keeping them on the road.
 
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Jaguars

With one foot in the XK and E-type world, I can only say that sensible mods/upgrades add value to the car. OK, don´t mess with a rare alu bodied 120 or a flat floor 3.8, but for the rest of them, the usual modifications add value. Even a change of colour, if totally unvisible, is fine. Jaguar improved the car every year, adding new technology when available, back in the 50s and 60s, so this is nothing new. I don´t go to any sort of concours events where originality is paramount.
All my coupes are better now than when they left the factory. The 5-speed ZF was an option on the 2800 CS, at least it said so in the red Owners Manual. Don´t know when the 5-speed Getrag became available.
The main thing is to have fun, and everybody should do what they feel is right. Matching numbers is a poor sales gimmick for beginners.
 
pmansson said:
With one foot in the XK and E-type world, I can only say that sensible mods/upgrades add value to the car. OK, don´t mess with a rare alu bodied 120 or a flat floor 3.8, but for the rest of them, the usual modifications add value. Even a change of colour, if totally unvisible, is fine. Jaguar improved the car every year, adding new technology when available, back in the 50s and 60s, so this is nothing new. I don´t go to any sort of concours events where originality is paramount.
All my coupes are better now than when they left the factory. The 5-speed ZF was an option on the 2800 CS, at least it said so in the red Owners Manual. Don´t know when the 5-speed Getrag became available.
The main thing is to have fun, and everybody should do what they feel is right. Matching numbers is a poor sales gimmick for beginners.
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If all your E9 cars are "Better now than when they left the factory" together with your "foot" into the Jags world I respect your attitude towards not going "as built"
With all respect!

Trevlig midsommar
Stefan
 
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