New to E9, considering a project

[jac1d]

Hello All,

I'm new to the forum and don't own an E9 at the moment, although I have seen a few pop up on the local Craigslist and I'm intrigued. I do own 2 x E34s.

I remember back in 1991 reading about an M5 swap in to a CS (as mentioned on the CCA forums and printed in European Car mag), and I always thought that was great. I've always been a fan of classic styling with modern underpinnings.

I'm considering a CS project, essentially replacing the driveline with something like an M50 six cyclinder/5 speed out of a realtively complete donor car. Not stuck on a particular donor, and not going for insane performance, but essentially dropping in the drive line to create a very modern classic.

I know you can swap in 5 speeds and M30s and mate them up to existing subframe mounts and the diff, but I'm wondering if I could leapfrog that and replace the entire underpinnings with something from a much newer 3 or 5 series car? I'm thinking literally buy a wrecked 135/325/328/330 etc. and move it over?

I'm also wondering if there is a particular year or model that is more desireable for a project like this. At the moment there are three cars available locally, all around the same price point.

-1972 3.0 CS Automatic in white/blue (fabric) with lots of records
-1974 3.0 CS 4 Speed in light blue/dark blue (leather) no details yet
-1972 3.0 CS 4 speed in dark blue/tan (leather) with 183K miles, no details

I'd welcome any feedback.

Thanks,

-Jeff
-

 

[Bill Riblett]

I've been involved with these cars since the early 80s.

If I were going to put a late (1996 on) drivetrain in an E9, what I would do is take the donor car, cut off the body, take the E9 cut away the floor and anything else that was in the way, and then 'adjust' the donor chassis to fit the E9 body. I am convinced that this will be easier in the long run than trying to decode and remake all the wiring, find a speedometer solution, fabricate all the drivetrain mounts, find space for all the new stuff late engines have, etc.

I have a 2005 330Ci and its engine compartment looks to be roughly the same size as an E9 and it is nearly completely full of 'stuff'. I don't see any room for a brake booster, which is pretty prominent alongside the E9 engine.

The newer donor car you use the more complicated its wiring and electronics will be.

If you go back through older posts in this forum, you will see that other people have considered late-model conversions, but I don't know of a single one that has been done.

Even S38 (M5 or M6) motor conversions are pretty complicated.

If you want to get an idea of what is involved, Paul Cain in southern Calif. built a 2002 with a late engine with twin turbos. Here is a link to some info:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1010776

 

[jmackro]

Jeff:

What I hear you saying is: "my goal is to take a perfectly good classic car, chop it all up, and turn it into something it was never meant to be - what is the best car to start with?".

My reply would be to begin with a Jaguar, '32 Ford, or mid-'50s Chevy. But, please don't destroy another e9 - rust and hotrodders have already claimed too many. Remember, we don't own these cars - we are just their current custodians - you do have a responsiblity to future generations of e9 owners.

 

[jac1d]

I've been involved with these cars since the early 80s.

If I were going to put a late (1996 on) drivetrain in an E9, what I would do is take the donor car, cut off the body, take the E9 cut away the floor and anything else that was in the way, and then 'adjust' the donor chassis to fit the E9 body. I am convinced that this will be easier in the long run than trying to decode and remake all the wiring, find a speedometer solution, fabricate all the drivetrain mounts, find space for all the new stuff late engines have, etc.

Hi Bill,

This is a really interesting suggestion and got me thinking. Maybe the fastest and cleanest way to do this is to buy something like a six cylinder Z3 roadster and overlay the coupe body in the manner you suggested. That could, potentially, work quite well. I have no idea about the comparative wheelbase of the two cars but I'll do some research on it this week.

The upshot of using a Z3 or a 3 series convertible is the extra reenforcement the chassis will already have. And, like you say, overlaying the body means you can potentially leave all the engine bay fitment largely in place.

I have no idea if this is even a viable project, but I'm going to take a peek at the three local cars that are up for sale and see what kind of shape they are in. I now used Z3's are going for $12-$18K locally, depending on mileage and engine/transmission.

-Jeff

 

[jac1d]

Jeff:

What I hear you saying is: "my goal is to take a perfectly good classic car, chop it all up, and turn it into something it was never meant to be - what is the best car to start with?".

My reply would be to begin with a Jaguar, '32 Ford, or mid-'50s Chevy. But, please don't destroy another e9 - rust and hotrodders have already claimed too many. Remember, we don't own these cars - we are just their current custodians - you do have a responsiblity to future generations of e9 owners.

Hi Jay,

I appreciate your perspective, and to each his own.

I'm not interested in some wild hot rod, and I find it interesting you're all for chopping up vintage Jags (I think anyone would agree with you that the Ford and Chevy's are fair game given the history there).

I'm more interested in a very modern interpretation of the CS, with the lovely lines but a much fresher driveline. I'm sorry if that offends you; I can understand your desire to keep the cars totally original, but its not what I'm interested in for this project.

-Jeff

 

[acat2002]

Jeff, unless money is no object and/or enjoy the process of solving problems and fabricating, the very best advice is to find a previously restored "resto-mod" like the example RonP on the board was selling several months ago. Car probably cost over $120k to build and last I checked it was offered at $55k (don't know if it sold). That car was not really a "hot rod" either. Maybe you could get a simple late model 3.5 swap done for less money without getting into every aspect of the car. But how often does a project start with "all I'm going to do is swap the drive train" and end up with "while I'm at it, I may as well......." next thing you know you've done a complete restoration with modern components.

If I were going to go the complete "resto-mod" route, buying a good (well-documented) build is the way I'd go. They are out there for sale (both good and bad), but if you are going to build it, or commission it yourself, get ready to spend lots and lots of money if you want it done right.

This topic has been discussed ad-nauseum on this board and from everything I've heard and seen, only attempt this if you have a very experienced shop to build it and a lot of money. It can be very badly executed (I've seen this). THere are only a handful of shops in this country that have the experience.

The old saying in the airline industry is "the way to make a small fortune in the airline industry...is to start with a large furtune". That also applies to building a resto-mod. I understand, it's not just about profit, but if you're looking on Craigs and eBay for a car, I gotta assume that money (saving it) matters to you...

Definately not trying to discourage you, just being realistic.

 

[abe3.0CSi]

I am with jamkro...But its your money. I think, IMHO, to take a car and make it better with a 5 speed and a Ljetronic or better engine is great. To take it and butcher it to make it a modern car, its a shame. I just hope you start with a car that is shot...and not take one that is near original in great working order and "destroy" it.
IMHO
abe

 

[jmackro]

Hi Jay,
...I find it interesting you're all for chopping up vintage Jags...

"Vintage Jaguar" is an oxymoron - they're all crap. You can destroy as many of those as you want, and no one on this forum will shed any tears. But, when you ask the BMW e9 lovers about using one of their babies to build a funny car, you have to expect a little pushback.

OK, if not a Jaguar, how about a Nash Metropolitan? - here's one that has already been transformed in the manner you propose:

 

[dang]

"Vintage Jaguar" is an oxymoron - they're all crap. You can destroy as many of those as you want, and no one on this forum will shed any tears. But, when you ask the BMW e9 lovers about using one of their babies to build a funny car, you have to expect a little pushback.

I'm sure you'd get the Jag guys all bent out of shape with that comment. I owned a '69 E-type roadster that I would never think of molesting. That was an awesome car all around. Even with the nicely done V8 conversions done to them it still isn't right. An E-type body put on a modern chassis.... pretty cool, but still not right.

Dan

 

[jac1d]

"Vintage Jaguar" is an oxymoron - they're all crap. You can destroy as many of those as you want, and no one on this forum will shed any tears. But, when you ask the BMW e9 lovers about using one of their babies to build a funny car, you have to expect a little pushback.

OK, if not a Jaguar, how about a Nash Metropolitan? - here's one that has already been transformed in the manner you propose:

A few things:

1) Anger management much?

2) Clearly you're not a Jag fan but I think the broader automotive community could reasonably agree that the XKE and XK120/150 are both beautiful cars in their own right. The XKE was famously one of the most photographed exhibits every at MOMA if I recall correctly. The E-type is considered, along with the first generation SL Mercedes and a handful of other cars, to be one of the most beautiful ever made. But I like the way you make your case. But I'm not here to argue with anyone, let alone about vintage Jags.

3) As another poster said, perhaps a 5 speed swap and FI on the engine is an attractive option as well, and more in keeping with the general approach to the CS. Thus the discussion.

4) I'm pretty sure that isn't a BMW drive train in the Nash either. Nor did I ever suggest I was thinking of building a hot rod, or since that didn't stick when you said it, a "funny car".

But again, thanks for your input, that's what makes a forum, lots of different opinions...

-Jeff

 

[acat2002]

Jeff,

I swear, somebody should write/publish a book on the do's and dont's of converting an E9 to modern FI and 5-spd. I'm talking from mild B35/5-spd swap, to full-on S38 swap and everything in between. Who's done it, what needs to be considered etc. etc. All the information is out there and you could spend days and days searching this board alone for examples. Everyone asks. I did when I got into the game.

You probably misinterpreted Jmackro's tongue-n-cheek jab. I'm fairly sure he's not the "angry" type. Blogs are a funny forum like that....you can say something completely benign (but kidding) and it comes off as condescending or abrasive. I can assure you most of us on the board (including Jmackro) are not that way.

That said, it should be noted that there is a pretty big difference between dropping in a later B35 L-Jet / 5-psd in an E9 and doing a complete swap of all the electronics and guts. I think you'll find that the former is very common and while not cost-prohibitive is still more expensive that you probably think. Every once in a while, I wonder what it would be like to have a smoother, more modern FI system and a little more torque. Every time I start adding up the costs, I do a reality check and decide that I'd rather live with my current set-up.

If you're starting with a $5,000 bucket, than by all means go for the modern FI and 5spd.
If you're really serious about doing this, take the time to visit a regional expert who has done a few of these conversions. You didn't mention where you are, but I assume the U.S. Depending what region you are located in, people on the board can direct you to the proper shop. In the Northeast, I always hear the same name come up (Mario at Vintage Sports Racing), in SoCal, I always hear Carl Nelson at LaJolla Independent. Spend the proper time with these guys up front, pay them for some due dilligence on your behalf and you'll save buckets of cash later down the road.

You can absolutely execute a 3.5L & 5spd swap while maintaining the vintage integrity of the E9.

 

[jac1d]

Thanks for the feedback. Not to worry, I've been around long enough to know some people mean it, some people don't and some people you just caught at a bad moment. I've got a sense of humour... and irony, so I'll be ok.

Hopefully I can take a look at one or more of the local E9s this week. There is one in a lovely deep dark blue that I find very appealing, but even from the grainy photos I see some issues so we'll see.

Perhaps I should have said I wanted to rebody a Z3 to look like an e9 instead! If you can't raise the ship, lower the lake.

-Jeff

 

[jmackro]

You probably misinterpreted Jmackro's tongue-n-cheek jab. I'm fairly sure he's not the "angry" type. Blogs are a funny forum like that....you can say something completely benign (but kidding) and it comes off as condescending or abrasive. I can assure you most of us on the board (including Jmackro) are not that way.

My friend Aynsley knows my sense of humor - yea, I'm certainly not angry, just pulling Jeff's chain a bit.

My point was less to criticize Jaguars - I'll certainly agree that XKE's and XK 120/140's are pretty (though their mechanical design leaves me cold). My point was more that here on the e9 board you have to put on your asbestos underwear when proposing a subframe swap to an CS coupe. Especially when you begin by admitting that you have never experienced one in stock form! So the list of cars that I would recommend that you modify (or hotrod, or augment, or whatever you want to call it) includes everything but the e9.

As another poster said, perhaps a 5 speed swap and FI on the engine is an attractive option as well, and more in keeping with the general approach to the CS.

Yes, that's an approach I would endorse - make mods that aren't irreversible. Also, experience the quirks of a 1970's era BMW before throwing away all of the "old time" stuff, and building just another boring 21st century car.

 

[CSteve]

I take my carbed CS to Driver's Schools. About 10 years ago I couldn't keep up with anyone. Picked up a slightly modified 73 CSi, headers, cam, head, 5 sp. and swapped it into my CS. Did some suspension mods and big open exhaust.I now have a car that is fast, "original" and fun. Now I can keep up with more cars, certainly not all, and have a great time on the track. The whole package: $9,000 and I was able to sell over $3,000 dollars of parts from my coupe and the donor. I got a lot of bang for Six Grand. And except that numbers don't match no one would ever know.

STeve

 

['69 2800cs]

You don't gain a lot with the Z3 idea, it has the same kind of strut and trailing arm suspension as an E9.

Put another way, an E9 is already a pretty modern car.

So...discretely stiffen the tub, add bolt on brake and suspension upgrades, then swap in a modern FI engine.

Did you see the E30 V10 in the off topic section? That car is nuts, but you can still have lots of fun with an E30 M3 without all that work. Same thing with an E9.

 

[Bill Riblett]

What you need for a donor car is a low mileage car with a trashed body, perhaps a hailstorm victim.

You really need to look into the electronics conversion issues.

 

[maxxfish]

Or check out Skip's (Mr Glasscar) all-fiberglass front clip...it would be perfect for a one-off tube frame front. Not to mention, his fiberglass work is impeccable....

http://www.mrglasscar.com/

 

[jac1d]

Or check out Skip's (Mr Glasscar) all-fiberglass front clip...it would be perfect for a one-off tube frame front. Not to mention, his fiberglass work is impeccable....

http://www.mrglasscar.com/

Wow, now that is really interesting. I notice he also says he's working on window glass and he has doors. If he did a rear end you could make the leap to doing a complete rebody of a newer 325 convertible, just have to work in the existing windshield and roofline and then trim out the car. Definitely need a parts car to trim it out though...

-Jeff

PS - Hey Jay, how do you feel about me making a bastardized, molested, hot rod funny car out of a newer 325i?

 

[jac1d]

Does anyone have the wheelbase measurements for the CS handy?

-Jeff

 

[dave v. in nc]

Fiberfab...

You know Jeff, if you could put together an all fiberglass bodied e9 on a 325 chassis, many of us on this board would be envious, to have a car to drive in the rain, to Wally-world, take the dog to the vet, and other mundane, daily "drive the beater" tasks. I dont know if you are old enough to remember the Fiberfab Jamacian, their faux GT-40 Ford, etc. And then there was Bruce Meyers with the Manx, and other dune buggies... The untimely death of too many Beetles...Sorry, I digress...

The world would be a prettier place if a lot of the ratty, black-windowed, unloved 3-series morphed into e9's, in a resin and fibre sort of way. I know that most of us here would rather see you succeed with that gameplan, than the earlier idea. Good luck. Dave V. in NC