Questions about the 3.0 CSL, and the 73/8 facelift

[feri]

Hello,

I would like to ask the following questions:

CLS questions:

- It is clean (although not advertised) fact that Alpina created and assemled the first 169 carb CSL. Magazines said that Alpina created a few parts for this 1st serie. Anyone know which components developed by Alpina ? My guess is the suspension.

Also i have seen a few differences in the brochure of the carb csl, and that carb csl adverised at mobile.de - i have red that car is in original condition.

- Which is the correct alloy wheels ?

Brochure:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a1.jpg

Advert:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a4.JPG

I have seen both versions on serveral 1st serie cars.

- Which is the correct wheel ?

Brochure:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a2.jpg

Advert:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a5.JPG

- has the 1st serie got 3.0 CSL stripes ? I have seen a few other 1st serie cars, those haven't got any stripes.

Brochure shows that there were no stripes:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a3.jpg

Advert show that there was stripes:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a4.JPG

- Have the 1st and the 2nd serie/LHD 3.0 CSL got the same interior (wood, seats, safety belts, etc) ?

- Have the 1st and 2nd serie/LHD 3.0 CSL, the 3 and 3 1/2 serie 3.0 CSL cars got the same brakes, suspension system, and exhaust system ?

- I have red that the first carb CSL got 3.0 CS sign at the begining at boot, then a few month before the carb CSL production stopped the CSLs got 3.0 CSL sign at the boot. My question is: when has it happened (year / month) ?


- It is clear that 1st serie cars had no headrest on the bucket seats. 2nd serie CSL brouchre shows that 2nd serie cars had no headrest, too. But i have seen a few cars in the past with headrest. So it was possible to order cars with front headrest ?

- I have red that the 3rd 1/2 serie 3.0 CSLs (57 cars) are different a bit from the 3rd serie cars: 3 part back spolier, and the seat moving buttons. Are there any others differences ?

- Have all the CSL got aluminium boot, aluminium bonnet, and aluminium doors, special light black carpet, and 36 AH battery, for weight saving reason ?

- Have all the CSL got black plastik rear bumpers and fixed rear plexiglas windows ?

- Which CSL serie had power front windows ?

- About the 500 RHD CSLs: have BMW produced them with orders from clients or just produced 500 CSL cars as soon as it was possible, and gave to the dealers to sell them ?

- Also i would like to know why was it hard to sell the RHD CSLs ? I have red that some of the cars spent 4 years at the dealers before someone bought them.

- Was RHD serie in production only in 1972, or were there any RHD made at BMW Germany in 1973, 1974, 1975 ?

- Is it true that the last 57 cars were special order, which means that the client could order anything (power windows, any color, etc) for the car ?

- About the 1st serie + Alpina connection. The BMW Motorsport book by J. W. says that at the begining of the 70s Alpina, Schnitzer, Koepchen, GS Tuning, and Broadspeed companies agreed that a lightweight car needed.
Anyone know when this "agreement" were made (year / month) ?

I ask it because i can't put this fact into the history of the CSL. The 1st serie, Alpina developed 3.0 CSL were produced since 5/1971. I think Alpina needed a few month to develop the first prototype, lets says the development started at 1/1971. If a company visit another company to ask if they want to make a car, then after the contract it takes a few month to start the development. So BMW probably visited Alpina at the end of 1970 to ask them if they want to make the 3.0 CSL.

There are three problem with this information (tuners agreement above, and bmw - alpina connection).

First, how Broadspeed could says that a lightweight car was needed, when the first 3.0 CS based, Broadspeed G1 ans G2 (race) cars were made in the summer 1972 ? Before 1972 Broadspeed hasn't worked on the CS, so it was quite stupid to say in 1972 (if we assume they said it in 1972) that a lightweight car was needed, when Alpina already made lots of lightweight cars from 5/1971.

Second problem is, that as i have seen the periodic race results, no Koepchen or GS Tuning 3.0 CS race car started in the ETCC (only a Koepchen 2800 CS). So if they haven't prepared any 3.0 CS car to the ETCC, they why did they said that a lightweight car needed ? I mean they were not interested in racing with the 3.0 CS.

Third problem is: why BMW asked Alpina to make 3.0 CSL roadcar ? BMW clearly said they leave any saloon car race activity for the tuners, and the only reason why the 3.0 CSL was made is that from a 3.0 CSL with the homologisation a good race car be made. But in 1971 BMW wasn't interested in racing. So it simply can't fit into the history.

Facelift question:

- When was the facelift of the E9 serie: 1973/8 or 1973/9 ?

- What components were changed in the facelifted cars ? It is clear that the front was changed, but do you know anything else (bumpers, interior, engine, etc) ?

- How is it possible you identify pre facelift and facelifted front and rear bumpers ?

- Have the facelift affected the RHD and the USA cars in 1973?

- Did the facelift in 1973 affected the 3.0 CSL too (3rd and 3rd 1/2 serie) ? If the answer is yes, then what happened with the 110 CSL produced from 1973/6 to 1974/1: did they got the same (pre facelift) components, or the CSLs produced before 1973/9 have pre facelift body and those are produced after 1973/9 got the facelifted body ?

Other questions:

- When (year / month) got the USA 3.0 CS cars got the huge front and rear bumpers ?

- When (year / month) got the Euro 3.0 CS and 3.0 CSi got Alpina alloy wheels ? I have seen several 1974 cars with this Alpin alloy wheels.

- What was the main reason in the USA not importing the 3.0 CSi ? If it was some emission law thing, then why USA allowed to import E24 630 CSi a few year later (it has the 3.0 CSi engine)?

- why the french E9 has yellow front light, and why the italian cars got red/white indicator light ?

-----

Thank you for your answers in advance.

 

[Malc]

Hello Feri,
I'll try and answer your questions, I'm sure others will correct me or answer bits I don't know! So please bear with me

I would like to ask the following questions:

CLS questions:

- It is clean (although not advertised) fact that Alpina created and assemled the first 169 carb CSL. Magazines said that Alpina created a few parts for this 1st serie. Anyone know which components developed by Alpina ? My guess is the suspension.

Also i have seen a few differences in the brochure of the carb csl, and that carb csl adverised at mobile.de - i have red that car is in original condition.

- Which is the correct alloy wheels ?


Brochure:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a1.jpg

Advert:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a4.JPG
I have seen both versions on serveral 1st serie cars.

Difficult. Alpina and various other companies commisioned alloy wheels for various cars during the 1970's. I personally don't think there is a "correct" wheel. However many will have a date stamp of casing mark so check that and see if it is close to the date of the car

- Which is the correct wheel ?

Brochure:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a2.jpg

Advert:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a5.JPG

The brochure wheel is correct the one in the advert looks like it is from an early 1980's 3, 5 or 6 series BMW. It could also be an Alpine steering wheel from that period.

- has the 1st serie got 3.0 CSL stripes ? I have seen a few other 1st serie cars, those haven't got any stripes.

Brochure shows that there were no stripes:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a3.jpg

Advert show that there was stripes:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/a4.JPG

A dealer option in the UK, it all depended on whether you wanted to show off! A CSL is "valid" if it has them or not. The most important thing is such items as alloy bonnet, doors and boot (trunk) lid, thinner steel panels and windscreen

- Have the 1st and the 2nd serie/LHD 3.0 CSL got the same interior (wood, seats, safety belts, etc) ?

- Have the 1st and 2nd serie/LHD 3.0 CSL, the 3 and 3 1/2 serie 3.0 CSL cars got the same brakes, suspension system, and exhaust system ?

Yes. There is basically very little difference between early and late E9s

- I have red that the first carb CSL got 3.0 CS sign at the begining at boot, then a few month before the carb CSL production stopped the CSLs got 3.0 CSL sign at the boot. My question is: when has it happened (year / month) ?

Don't know - urban myth?

- It is clear that 1st serie cars had no headrest on the bucket seats. 2nd serie CSL brouchre shows that 2nd serie cars had no headrest, too. But i have seen a few cars in the past with headrest. So it was possible to order cars with front headrest ?

Do not trust brochures.! BMW and all the other car manufactures saved money by recycling pictures!

- I have red that the 3rd 1/2 serie 3.0 CSLs (57 cars) are different a bit from the 3rd serie cars: 3 part back spolier, and the seat moving buttons. Are there any others differences ?

Not sure, some differences occur due to the country that they are going to be delivered in

- Have all the CSL got aluminium boot, aluminium bonnet, and aluminium doors, special light black carpet, and 36 AH battery, for weight saving reason ?

No some have steel panels, but are fitted with "city packs", again depends on country of delivery.

- Have all the CSL got black plastik rear bumpers and fixed rear plexiglas windows ?

Not really, Plastic bumpers were common, plexiglass windows were not.

- Which CSL serie had power front windows ?

Most UK delivered cars, don't know about the rest of the world

- About the 500 RHD CSLs: have BMW produced them with orders from clients or just produced 500 CSL cars as soon as it was possible, and gave to the dealers to sell them ?
- Also i would like to know why was it hard to sell the RHD CSLs ? I have red that some of the cars spent 4 years at the dealers before someone bought them.

They were produced in a "run" and sat around in fields and storage both in Germany and the uk quietly going rusty as nobody wanted to buy them. (1973- 1974 oil crisis) Many were reworked by BMW UK with comfortable bits and bobs in a desperate attempt to attract buyers. Remember these were the days you could buy an E-type Jag, a Lotus Cortina, and still have change to buy a Land Rover for the price of one CSL

- Was RHD serie in production only in 1972, or were there any RHD made at BMW Germany in 1973, 1974, 1975 ?

Related to the above - yes they were produced right up to the end!

- Is it true that the last 57 cars were special order, which means that the client could order anything (power windows, any color, etc) for the car ?

The client could order anything right through the production preiod, assuming they had enough money! This was model "run out time" so like other makers they needed to shift the cars before the next models came along

- About the 1st serie + Alpina connection. The BMW Motorsport book by J. W. says that at the begining of the 70s Alpina, Schnitzer, Koepchen, GS Tuning, and Broadspeed companies agreed that a lightweight car needed.
Anyone know when this "agreement" were made (year / month) ?

don't know the date but I do know the CSL was born due to the rules of the 1970's Touring car championships. Basically Ford with the 3100 Capri were "pissing" all over BMW. However a "hole" in the rules allowed for "aerodynamic" modifications and as long as the manufactured built 500 road legal cars the basic design was allowed in the championship

I ask it because i can't put this fact into the history of the CSL. The 1st serie, Alpina developed 3.0 CSL were produced since 5/1971. I think Alpina needed a few month to develop the first prototype, lets says the development started at 1/1971. If a company visit another company to ask if they want to make a car, then after the contract it takes a few month to start the development. So BMW probably visited Alpina at the end of 1970 to ask them if they want to make the 3.0 CSL.

BMW has always been "sniffing" around with Alpina and other tuning houses when the BMW 750 (rear engined car) was raced and the 2002 cars

There are three problem with this information (tuners agreement above, and bmw - alpina connection).
First, how Broadspeed could says that a lightweight car was needed, when the first 3.0 CS based, Broadspeed G1 ans G2 (race) cars were made in the summer 1972 ? Before 1972 Broadspeed hasn't worked on the CS, so it was quite stupid to say in 1972 (if we assume they said it in 1972) that a lightweight car was needed, when Alpina already made lots of lightweight cars from 5/1971.

Second problem is, that as i have seen the periodic race results, no Koepchen or GS Tuning 3.0 CS race car started in the ETCC (only a Koepchen 2800 CS). So if they haven't prepared any 3.0 CS car to the ETCC, they why did they said that a lightweight car needed ? I mean they were not interested in racing with the 3.0 CS.
Third problem is: why BMW asked Alpina to make 3.0 CSL roadcar ? BMW clearly said they leave any saloon car race activity for the tuners, and the only reason why the 3.0 CSL was made is that from a 3.0 CSL with the homologisation a good race car be made. But in 1971 BMW wasn't interested in racing. So it simply can't fit into the history.

The history of racing BMW's from the 1960's and 70's has always been abit murky! There were lots of privateers both in Europe and the USA who raced all sorts of BMW's without "official" backing. However the official racing in Germany was a responce to Ford wiping BMW off the map with the 3100S Capri
Various tuning houses in different countries used the CSL as a basis for a race car, hence the use of Broadspeed, Alpina etc etc

Facelift question:

- When was the facelift of the E9 serie: 1973/8 or 1973/9 ?

- What components were changed in the facelifted cars ? It is clear that the front was changed, but do you know anything else (bumpers, interior, engine, etc) ?

- How is it possible you identify pre facelift and facelifted front and rear bumpers ?

- Have the facelift affected the RHD and the USA cars in 1973?

- Did the facelift in 1973 affected the 3.0 CSL too (3rd and 3rd 1/2 serie) ? If the answer is yes, then what happened with the 110 CSL produced from 1973/6 to 1974/1: did they got the same (pre facelift) components, or the CSLs produced before 1973/9 have pre facelift body and those are produced after 1973/9 got the facelifted body ?

As far as I know there is very little difference between early and late cars, except in minor interior changes regarding switches etc. However USA bound cars were subject to EPA/DOT requirements - I'll leave that up to the guys and girls in the US!!!

Other questions:

- When (year / month) got the USA 3.0 CS cars got the huge front and rear bumpers ?

- When (year / month) got the Euro 3.0 CS and 3.0 CSi got Alpina alloy wheels ? I have seen several 1974 cars with this Alpin alloy wheels.

- What was the main reason in the USA not importing the 3.0 CSi ? If it was some emission law thing, then why USA allowed to import E24 630 CSi a few year later (it has the 3.0 CSi engine)?

Careful here! Much of what your asking is country specific, and thus the "officail" importers demands and requests

- why the french E9 has yellow front light, and why the italian cars got red/white indicator light ?

Country specific regulations

Whew :roll:
Malc

 

[marc]

Have all the CSL got aluminium boot, aluminium bonnet, and aluminium doors, special light black carpet, and 36 AH battery, for weight saving reason ?
All the uk rhd cars I believe had ali bonnet, doors and hood, and I belive the shells were made out of thinner steel.
Have all the CSL got black plastic rear bumpers and fixed rear Plexiglas windows ?
No, rhd cars had standard chrome bumpers and glass windows
Which CSL series had power front windows ?
Rhd city pack cars had electric windows, do not no about other markets

About the 500 RHD CSLs: have BMW produced them with orders from clients or just produced 500 CSL cars as soon as it was possible, and gave to the dealers to sell them ?
I believe they were made in one run.

Also i would like to know why was it hard to sell the RHD CSLs ? I have red that some of the cars spent 4 years at the dealers before someone bought them.

The price was way to high for a car that was too much like the normal CS/CSI. I heard that you could buy a Dino 246 and still have money left for a nice E-type

First, how Broadspeed could says that a lightweight car was needed, when the first 3.0 CS based, Broadspeed G1 ans G2 (race) cars were made in the summer 1972 ? Before 1972 Broadspeed hasn't worked on the CS, so it was quite stupid to say in 1972 (if we assume they said it in 1972) that a lightweight car was needed, when Alpina already made lots of lightweight cars from 5/1971

From my understanding it was all due to Holmagation for racing, the first series cars were just below 3000 cc and could only race in the upto 3 ltr class, the second series was 3003 cc and could then be raced in a higher engine size class. The same gose with the aluminum pannels, 1000 (maybe 500?) had to be made and sold before they were aloud to be used . I believe that it only applied to group 2 cars as they had to be based on road going cars. I also think the Broad speed cars were group 4 cars and didnt have to be based on producion cars, they could be turbo charged ect ect.

 

[marc]

Malc, we must have been typing at the same time

 

[Malc]

Marc
I think so! :shock:

Malc

 

[feri]

Dear Marc and Malc,

You are fantastic ! Thank you very much !

 

[Malc]

Feri
The short answer to all your questions.........

Are you looking at a car to buy?

If so check out the chassis number with BMW Mobile Tradition, they can tell you if it's a genuine CSL or not!

Malc

 

[feri]

Feri
The short answer to all your questions.........

Are you looking at a car to buy?

If so check out the chassis number with BMW Mobile Tradition, they can tell you if it's a genuine CSL or not!

Malc

Dear Malc,

No, at the moment i don't plan to buy a CSL, i am simply interested in the history of the e9 cars, trying to understand the differences, etc. Not many important facts are documented by BMW and the car magazines/book, so it is really great help i got from you.

 

[30csl]

One thing, all the rhd csls were made at the end of 1972, thus they are all tax exempt here in the uk.

 

[jamesr]

the steering wheel is momo, i have one in mine but don't have any pics of it at the moment

 

[DJSimca]

Hi Feri,
Very interesting questions that you pose .. in fact someone should try to document all this information and post it somewhere on the web site.

I think the experts have spoken and have only a few comments.

- I have red that the 3rd 1/2 serie 3.0 CSLs (57 cars) are different a bit from the 3rd serie cars: 3 part back spolier, and the seat moving buttons. Are there any others differences ?

It is my understanding that these cars were only available in Chamonix and Polaris

- Have all the CSL got aluminium boot, aluminium bonnet, and aluminium doors, special light black carpet, and 36 AH battery, for weight saving reason ?

- Have all the CSL got black plastik rear bumpers and fixed rear plexiglas windows ?

No they didn't. In fact most CSL's are probably unique because the owners could specify most everything from the 'purest' CSLwith aluminium 'everything', plexi windows etc. to a CSL which had all the creature comforts of the best equipped CSi.

- About the 1st serie + Alpina connection. The BMW Motorsport book by J. W. says that at the begining of the 70s Alpina, Schnitzer, Koepchen, GS Tuning, and Broadspeed companies agreed that a lightweight car needed.
Anyone know when this "agreement" were made (year / month) ?

I ask it because i can't put this fact into the history of the CSL. The 1st serie, Alpina developed 3.0 CSL were produced since 5/1971. I think Alpina needed a few month to develop the first prototype, lets says the development started at 1/1971. If a company visit another company to ask if they want to make a car, then after the contract it takes a few month to start the development. So BMW probably visited Alpina at the end of 1970 to ask them if they want to make the 3.0 CSL.

As I understand this interesting aspect of the CSL development history BMW did not ask anyone to develop the CSL. Originally BMW was against the tuners using their luxury coupe for racing .. it didn't fit with the image that BMW wanted this model to have. BMW was pushed by Alpina and others to develop the CSL and it was only after Alpina had shown that they could be successful with a non-CSL car that BMW started listening.

All carburettor versions of the CSL were developed in 1971, i.e. before Neerpatsch was poached from Ford and BMW Motorsport GmbH was founded. CSL version 1 (carburettor) was never homologated because BMW didn't make enough cars. In 1972 when BMW Motorsport was founded they 'started over' with the 3003 engine which enabled the later 3.5 liter versions of the engine as per rules. If was also only after 1972 that BMW finally completely bought into the idea of racing these cars.

The wing kit (Batmobil) for versions 3.0 and 3.5 were apparently developed in 2 days in a wind tunnel in southern Germany. Neerpatsch and team simply did trial and error until they had achieved their amazing result .. a reduction of the lift at the rear of 60kgs at 200km/h to a 'downforce' of 30kg at the same speed. They had only 2 days to develop the kit because of a deadline filing for 'evolutionary changes' to the design.

Regards
Torben

 

[feri]

Dear 30csl, jamesr, DJSimca

Thank you for the answers !

 

[gpetrus]

Bumpers on U.S. cars were similar to Euro thru 1972. The 1973 U.S. bumpers were similar to the Euro models but moved 3 inches further away from the body front and rear per U.S. regulation. 1974 U.S. models were the first to have the huge bumpers.

Thru 1972 e9s met U.S. emission standards without needing modification. 1973 began emission modifications for U.S. e9s.

There was a thread on this board about a week ago about the very early 2800s having all red lenses on the tail lights. If you were looking to find any differences between early and late cars I think the '68 and '69 models would have the most. The thinking being that they would have the most leftover 2000cs parts on them.

 

[feri]

Bumpers on U.S. cars were similar to Euro thru 1972. The 1973 U.S. bumpers were similar to the Euro models but moved 3 inches further away from the body front and rear per U.S. regulation. 1974 U.S. models were the first to have the huge bumpers.

Thru 1972 e9s met U.S. emission standards without needing modification. 1973 began emission modifications for U.S. e9s.

There was a thread on this board about a week ago about the very early 2800s having all red lenses on the tail lights. If you were looking to find any differences between early and late cars I think the '68 and '69 models would have the most. The thinking being that they would have the most leftover 2000cs parts on them.

Dear gpetrus,

Thank you for these information.

- When you write '1973 U.S. E9 car" (the emission and the bumper information), is it means the cars produced from 1/73 or 1973 modell year : 9/72-8/73, or from the facelift :9/73 ?

- so if i understand correctly the 1973 emission modification precluded any sales / import of the 3.0 CSi in the USA, right ?

- i will try to locate that thread on the board about the tail lenses. This red lenses story is new information for me, i haven't heard about it. Anyway is it affected only the euro cars, or it is possible to find such lenses at the USA 2800 CS / CS automatic cars made in 1969 ? (79 cars produced)

 

[gpetrus]

Feri,

A gentleman whose board name is Blumax here has a very early U.S. 2800cs with the red tail lenses.

As for what month the bumper/emission changes occured I don't know. I've seen cars produced near the end of the model year registered as the next year's model according to when the car was purchased not manufactured. It's a bit murky as to a specific month.

As for the csi I'm not sure, someone else may know more. It was my understanding that the csi was not officially sold in the U.S. market, but I'm not certain of that.