Roof Removal

decoupe

decoupe

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I have a lead on a non-sunroof car and want to take the roof. Where are the recommended cut lines for the A and C pillars. Flush with the body line? Take the deck and some of the window openings?

Anyone with a link to a roof swap - I recall one on the forum but didn't save the link.

Doug
 
'A' & 'C' pillar photo's

Doug,

Here is a photo of the lower 'A' pillar section with the front fender removed. The arrow shows how high the front fender piece comes up the pillar. Not sure if this is of any help, or exactly where to make the cut. I am assuming that if you do not want to remove the fender, that the cut on your original car would be above this point? The same point on the 'C' pillar is higher up.
 

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Thanks guys, these links show everything I need to know. There are three ways to fill the sunroof opening; welding in a patch, replacing the whole roof skin and replacing the whole roof down to the A and C pillar joints in Sven's photos.

Taking the whole roof leaves me all three options but means I have to store the roof until I'm motivated to do the job. Any guess as to what this would weigh? 100 - 125lbs sound right?

Doug
 
Hi Doug,
I don't think a roof weighs anywhere 100lbs. I cut a roof with an electric sunroof and remember it as being more awkward than heavy. It's been a long time but I'm guessing the weight was more like 50-60 pounds? Something I could handle by my self. I cut the roof off at the "bottom" of the windshield posts to have as much flexibility as possible. A friend who was a retired bodyman grafted it onto another coupe to replace the glass pop-out sunroof it had been inflicted with.

If I were ever to do another, I would replace the skin like Bill Williams did with his 2002. (Look on the 2002 FAQ). This leaves the roof "frame" in place and keeps the windshield openings in place. (Not that the Karmann build quality was all that great...)
 
Bill:

Had a look at the donor car and I think you're right about the weight - there isn't much there.

If my welding guru confirms he can weld in a patch without heat warping, I will make a template and cut out a section of the donor roof, use that piece as the template to mark the hole in my car roof and have him weld in the patch. If he says otherwise then I'll take the whole roof skin and do it that way.

Maybe this winter or maybe next, but at least I will have the donor panel.

Doug
 
I’m with Bill R on the idea of just changing the skin as being the best way and the least challenging. You also have to remove all the sunroof channels, water trays and reinforcements and replace them with the lighter ribs from the plain roof, all of that will be easier with the skin removed because you can stand up in the car.

If you are careful removing your present skin (don’t drill out the spot welds any bigger than you absolutely have to) it and all the sunroof parts may be worth decent $$$ to the right person.

Forget about the factory seams, cut thru only the skin about 4” down on the posts when removing your present skin. Then cut the replacement skin at 4 ½” so you have some overlap. Make 2 or 3 longitudinal cuts about ¾” long at the ends of each post on the replacement skin. Put the new skin on by sliding the replacement posts inside your existing posts, the longitudinal cuts allow you to close them up a bit.

With the ½” overlap even a beginner body man can’t miss on his measurements if he is careful. Whether you use plug welds or panel cement to replace the spot welds is your call but I definitely would fully weld the posts. ~ John Buchtenkirch
 
Sunroof

Thanks John, but the sunroof was not a factory install (grafted from a mid 80's 6 series) and it's removal last winter rendered the unit unusable. My car was originally a non-sunroof car so it's ready for the ribs which I will grab. I offered it to a couple of restoration shops but no interest?

If I was going the opposite direction and wanted a sunroof then the swap as you and Bill suggest is the way I would go but I'm just fixing a hole where the rain gets in.....

Doug
 
Sunroof Plug

The simplist solution would be to make a template of your current opening to be be used to cut the patch from the donor; increasing the size of the patch by one inch. Flange the replacement patch, 3M panel adhesive, inside the car, clecos to hold.

The flange will add the stability of any ribs.

You can use a welding stud to reverse weld the cleco holes; if you're picky.

Be sure to heat the 3M with a heat lamp before any skim or primer. Unless you've got an oven. Not too hot; warm. You just want to double cure the panel adhesive before final body work.

I wouldn't take the whole roof just to do a sunroof patch. You just want enough material that has the correct crown and to flange. If you have a plasma cutter that would be best, next would be a body saw.

Be sure to seal and treat the interior or back side of the seam and use some form of sound deadening like fatman, etc.

If I had to do a whole roof, the pillars would end up tabbed to accept and reinforce the patch/ seam. But because of curves and geometry, you have to go very slow with cuts and ease everything into position while keeping the correct glass openings.

Sunroofs probably add 20 lbs. or so and this comes up regularly with racers and original restorations back to original.

Good luck with the project.
 
Skin is far more time consuming, but best likelihood of keeping whatever glass seal alignment you have, finishing of the spots from installing the new skin is tricky, no adhesive known to man will survive the natural flex of the car if it is driven. Cleanliness of seam and absolute flat mating faces prior to spots will reduce risk of rust along the seam, but the likelihood of seam rust is at least 50-50 (a coin toss) if the car endures weather. Remember you cannot weld treated metal, and bare metal when in contact with other bare metal corrodes 2-3x as quickly. Which is why all our cars basically suck when it comes to seam corrosion

"A" and "C" pillar mtg is very tricky alignment-wise with risk to leakage (as stated in another post) and almost 100% likelihood of rust whether at the suggested locations (base of the windshield pillar and about midway up the "C" pillar, right next to the groovy roundel badges) or in a zig-zag of the layers of metal further up the post.

If it were my car, say if I wanted to prep 2270011 as a competition car and remove the sunroof cassette, I would go with reskinning

f.w.i.w.
y.m.m.v.
 
61porsche said:
The simplist solution would be to make a template of your current opening to be be used to cut the patch from the donor; increasing the size of the patch by one inch. Flange the replacement patch, 3M panel adhesive, inside the car, clecos to hold.

The flange will add the stability of that has the correct crown and to flange. If you have a plasma cutter that would be best, next would be a body saw.

Good luck with the project.
Click to expand...

Is there a recommended panel adhesive? This is something I'd like to look into, gluing instead of welding and I like the idea of stiffening the skin.

Thanks for the suggestion.
 
I'm most familiar with the 3M products, 3M Automix Panel Bonding Adhesive - 08115 is one that is structural. But there are several that have extended work times and strengths. Any auto body supply shop will have the product.

New car repair, with new high carbon steel, isn't as thick,etc. so this type of repair was developed for some time now- well over 10 years.

Since there's no welding, there's no distortion- a big issue on a large panel. Since it's waterproof, there's that benefit. Just use a little common sense on the seams, so they are sealed well. Like I said, I would also add dynomat or fatman back behind a blind panel not only for the sound, but for the waterproofing properties to protect the seam only because I live near the coast and know what moisture can do.

Conversely, if the seam was visible like a wheel well panel, I would weld and hammer finish for an authentic look as possible.

I know from pictures that several E9 restorers use this procedure on floor pans ( Coupeking) and roofs ( Europe). If there was a situation where a good ground was required, say a battery box or pan in a Porsche, I would also spot weld enough areas for the electrical path.
 
OK, I didn’t realize your sunroof wasn’t factory so I agree it’s resale value is likely nonexistent.

When I look at my sunroof I see a panel with crown from side to side but almost no crown front to rear. It can just barely be considered a compound curve. Personally I would make templates of the 2 crowns and see if you can find another roof to cut your patch out of. A Volvo 140 or 240 car or wagon pops up in my mind but many others may work equally as well. Even some deck lids may work.

This may sound crazy after you went thru the trouble to pick up a used roof. But in the event that your welded in patch job doesn’t work out as well as you have hoped for you always have the backup plan of changing the complete skin. I have attended a dozen or so swap meets every season for the last 25 or 30 years and have seen dozens of street rod projects with filled roofs. Not to wish bad luck on you but better than 95% of the stuff I see is pretty bad when inspected from the underside. The jobs just wouldn’t fly without a bunch of Bondo on top to cover all the mistakes. I would hate to load up a flat roof like on our coupes with plastic, it’s very likely to fail. ~ John Buchtenkirch
 
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