Seattle way of life

[Mot27cars]

I can't be the only member reading this from outside the US sighing and muttering a quiet 'WTF' is going on with the US at the moment.
From over here it looks like the whole country is coming apart at the seams ahead of the presidential election.

There is a slippery slope and many are sliding down it fast.......

 

[jabloomf1230]

I've always thought that publically displayed statues are political statements that get a pass because they are also considered "art". Thus, IMO they belong in a museum. I'm sure at some point in the future, some group will want to tear down the statue of Jimi Hendrix in Seattle. And maybe even the statue of Mr. Cub, Ernie Banks that stands outside Wrigley Field in Chicago.

 

[Steven]

That is essentially what cities are doing now. Moving statues to history museums. I don’t see the association between the removal of a public monuments (that is what they are) and rewriting history. Both highly accurate and white-washed history has been written and archived for better or worse. It isn’t going anywhere, and you can find it all in the Library of Congress, or Netflix. The narrative around losing vital history by taking down monuments is simply false. Taking down a statue is *not the same as building a Walmart on a Civil War battlefield. These aren’t period landmarks and historical sites. We are removing modern day (mostly Jim Crow era) tributes to Confederate leaders. Painting over a 1955 Dixie flag mural on a wall of a Piggly Wiggly wouldn’t be erasing civil war history either. I made that example up to illustrate my point.

The only real fallout other than removal/transport cost is that a skilled artist can no longer showcase their work. Sadly they chose subject matter and a government paycheck that honored leaders fighting for a lost cause...

I completely agree with this. One of the best ways to contextualize these monuments is asking any person of any race, religion, or creed, "Where would you like me to erect or store the statue of the person who stole your family from their homes and enslaved them"

As a Jewish person, I don't need a statue of any of the anti-semtic people in history to "remind" me of anything. Just get rid of the damn things.

 

[JFENG]

What if it were a statue of Werner Von Braun? He led rocket development of the V1/V2 which killed many in England during WW2. After the war he helped America develop its rocket program (leading to both ICBM’s and eventuallly men on the moon). Most major historical figures have both good and bad mixed up in their legacies. Hitler, is an exception, AFAIK.

Being Asian, one could say similar things about Mao, who killed tens of millions of Chinese deliberately and unintentionally (eg by stupidity), and crushed individual rights in the style of Stalin and Kim. But, he also rid the country of corrupt warlords and a useless monarchy, created greater equality between men/women than anywhere else in the world, and did by and large reduce the wealthy disparity between rich and poor (unfortunately dramatically downward). And during his rule, crime was astoundingly low in China...

My biased viewpoint is history is messy and thereforenits not possible to not offend everyone with it.

 

[jmackro]

one could say similar things about Mao, ..... And during his rule, crime was astoundingly low in China...

Sure, as long as you ignore the crimes committed by Mao.

and did by and large reduce the wealthy disparity between rich and poor (unfortunately dramatically downward).

Yes, reducing income inequality is easy when you do it that way. Of course, the ruling elites never fall to that level.

 

[Steven]

What if it were a statue of Werner Von Braun? He led rocket development of the V1/V2 which killed many in England during WW2. After the war he helped America develop its rocket program (leading to both ICBM’s and eventuallly men on the moon). Most major historical figures have both good and bad mixed up in their legacies. Hitler, is an exception, AFAIK.

Being Asian, one could say similar things about Mao, who killed tens of millions of Chinese deliberately and unintentionally (eg by stupidity), and crushed individual rights in the style of Stalin and Kim. But, he also rid the country of corrupt warlords and a useless monarchy, created greater equality between men/women than anywhere else in the world, and did by and large reduce the wealthy disparity between rich and poor (unfortunately dramatically downward). And during his rule, crime was astoundingly low in China...

My biased viewpoint is history is messy and thereforenits not possible to not offend everyone with it.

Even Henry Ford was anti-semetic (he authored a book entitled The International Jew), and Ford and GM has business dealings with Nazi Germany. I don't particularly feel Henry Ford needs a statue either, and his place as an industrialist is cemented in history with our without that statue.

I'm also obviously a fan of BMW, as well as Mercedes and Porsche, all with complex histories. I think what it comes down to is that perhaps we no longer need statues celebrating those who have committed or supported atrocities, and we begin to recognize the complexities of these conversations, and that there are often subjugated groups at the other end of people with power and influence. I think that's been the case since the beginning of humanity, and society is finally waking up to the importance of that conversation

 

[jmackro]

...perhaps we no longer need statues celebrating those who have committed or supported atrocities, think that's been the case since the beginning of humanity, and society is finally waking up to the importance of that conversation

Sure. But how many of the statues erected in the 21st Century will be appalling to people living in the 22nd? Maybe the best strategy will be to make statues out of sugar, or something else that will self-destruct after a few years.

 

[Arde]

Indeed. My son reflected on that during his first trip to London:

Sure. But how many of the statues erected in the 21st Century will be appalling to people living in the 22nd? Maybe the best strategy will be to make statues out of sugar, or something else that will self-destruct after a few years.

 

[Stan]

In Canada , statues of our first Prime Minister, Sir John A MacDonald have been removed from public view. There is a call to remove pretty well all former Prime Ministers from our currency. Coincidentally, the statue of former prime minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau was vandalised by someone who painted Black Face over him yesterday.
Journalists asked the RCMP if this was a Hate crime .
While we are focused on these pressing issues, anyone Wonder if organ harvesting in China is real?!

Why are all prior PMs disliked?

 

[Stan]

Robert E Lee - A son of Revolutionary War officer Henry "Light Horse Harry" Lee III, Lee was a top graduate of the United States Military Academy and an exceptional officer and military engineer in the United States Army for 32 years. During this time, he served throughout the United States, distinguished himself during the Mexican–American War, and served as Superintendent of the United States Military Academy. He was also the husband of Mary Anna Custis Lee, adopted great-granddaughter of George Washington. When Virginia's 1861 Richmond Convention declared secession from the Union, Lee chose to follow his home state, despite his desire for the country to remain intact and an offer of a senior Union command.
More than just the rebel although if he chose to stay in the Union army, the war could have been much shorter

 

[Nicad]

Why are all prior PMs disliked?

I dunno, It is a very vocal minority. Generally speaking we have some animosity as well as pride for those who succeed on the international stage (Meaning the US). We certainly like to copy any version of social trends in the US. Tear down those Statues!

 

[Stan]

The Germans did not plow Auschwitz under. Does it offend, very likely but the Holocaust will no the forgotten or white washed. Statues of Confederate generals and other monuments should be moved but not destroyed. I would not want to see Mt Rushmore demolished or Stone Mountain in Georgia for that matter. Last time I was there the majority of the picnickers were people of color.

 

[Markos]

Last time I was there the majority of the picnickers were people of color.

Your point is noted about the statues. I tend to agree about keeping. Those museums should cover these leaders and explain their excellence as military tacticians and leaders. They should discuss why and when the monuments were created, where they were placed, and why they have moved.

I’ve been to Stone Mountain many times. Interesting observation about park goers given that Stone Mountain Georgia is nearly 75% black. The monument was funded by the KKK and nearly every party involved had ties to the organization.

German concentration camps were left intact and maintained to “never forget” the genocide that occurred. Another reason why there is interest in preservation is to have a preponderance of evidence to combat holocaust deniers, some of whom are also fighting to preserve confederate flags and statues.

Preserving the history of the holocaust is far different from erecting tributes to confederate leaders well past a civil war that divided our country. The comparison really is apples and oranges. I’ve never been to Germany but I would hazard a guess that there aren’t many statues or reliefs of Hitler, Heydrich, Himler, or any of the other architects of the holocaust.

This particular pain point is easy to fix. Low hanging fruit usually has minimal impact, and this fix won’t have a measurable impact on society. However, removing the symbols and monuments of past indiscretions is if anything, directionally correct.

My two cents...

 

[Arde]

There is this beautiful statue of Julius Caesar in Rome.

Statua di Giulio Cesare - All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go (with Photos)

www.tripadvisor.com

Let's see what the Over/Under is for that statue being taken down by the masses:
Great military leader, good
Imperialism, bad
Roman roads, good
Slaves were considered property, for life - very bad
Accountants and physicians were often slaves - very useful now that I just finished my taxes
Married three times - I am not touching this one

 

[JMinPDX]

German concentration camps were left intact and maintained to “never forget” the genocide that occurred. Another reason why there is interest in preservation is to have a preponderance of evidence to combat holocaust deniers, some of whom are also fighting to preserve confederate flags and statues.

Absolutely correct. . Cue Rod Serling.