Side mirror question

F

feri

Well-Known Member
Messages
144
Reaction score
0
Location
Hungary, Budapest
Dear all,

I would like to ask your help about the side mirrors of the e9 serie. For a long time i believed, that the new style (thick) mirrors came in 1971 for the 3.0 cs/csi - as the brochures sugessted. But after i have carefully examined lots of the factory and magazine pictures, i don't understand the logic behind these mirrors.

Let me show you a few 'problem' example:

1. 2800 CS press photo from 1968 - old style thin mirror at the 'A' pillar

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror1.jpg

2. 2800 CS brochure photo from 1968/12 - old style thin mirror behind the left vent window, also it seems the shape of the mirrors on this picture is different

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror3.jpg

3. 2800 CS Road and Track photo from 1970/2 - 2000 CS style mirror on the top of the left side panel

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror7.jpg

4. 2800 CS DKW photo from about 1971 - it has both 2000 CS style mirror on the top of the left side panel and the old style thin mirror, but the thin mirror is now is in different place, behind the front left vent window (!)

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror11.jpg

So we have seen 4 2800 CS photos, and all of them has different mirrors, on different places.

Lets continue with some 3.0 cs / csi photos:

5. 3.0 CSi factory photo from 1971 - 2000 CS style mirror on the top of the left side panel

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror9.jpg

6. 3.0 CS or CSi brochure photo from 1971 - old style thin mirror at the 'A' pillar

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror5.jpg

7. 3.0 CS USA brochure photo from about 1973 - new style thick mirror, behind the front left vent window

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror2.jpg

8. 3.0 CS or CSi euro brochure photo from 1973 - old style thin mirror at the 'A' pillar

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror4.jpg

9. 3.0 CS or CSi factory photo from about 1972 - new style thick mirror, behind the front left vent window

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror10.jpg

10. 3.0 CS or CSi factory photo from about 1971 - old style thin mirror at
the 'A' pillar

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror12.jpg

11. 3.0 CSi brochure photo from 1974 - old style thin mirror at
the 'A' pillar

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror13.jpg

12. 3.0 CS brochure photo from 1975 - old style thin mirror at
the 'A' pillar

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror6.jpg

What i have seen / think about these mirror based on all the pictures i have seen - please correct me if i am wrong:

A, All Italian E9 got old style thin mirror (you can see this style mirror fox ex. on the 1st picture)
B, All USA E9 got new style thick mirror
C, The 2000 CS style "mirror on the top of the left side panel" was available until 1971 or 1973
D, Both 3.0 CSL (all series) and the 2.5CS got old style thin mirror at the 'A' pillar

My questions are:

- what is the logic behind these mirrors ?
- actually are these mirrors were standard or can be selected from the equipment list ? For example: was it possible to choose a 2000 CS mirror + new style mirror at the 'A' pillar for a 1969 2800 CS ?
- which mirrors were available for which e9 models + date whet it was available ? (for example: the 2000 CS mirror was available for 2800 CS and 3.0 CSi between 1968-1971)
- what is the logic between the mixed mirrors - when the 2000 CS style mirror and the old style mirror also were on the car ?
- are there any information about if it was possible to order a car without side mirrors ?
- why some cars have got no passanger side window ? Was is a specific e9 modell / year speciality, or it was possible to order a car without side window ?

For example: 3.0 CSi right hand drive car, Autocar magazine photo from 1972 - no side mirror on the passanger side

[Broken External Image]:http://www.capabmw.hu/e9forum/mirror8.jpg

- it is known that electic outside window was available for the e9. Which mirror was electic mirror (old style thin, or new style thick mirror), when was it available (year and/or month) and for which modell ?

- as Mobile tradition has got no information about the ordered equipment list of the E9 BMWs, how is is possible to find out that which mirror (or mirrors !) were ordered for a spefic car, and where the mirror were placed on the driver and/or the passenger side ?

Thank you for your answers in advance.
 
ah yes, the "where are your mirrors?" question....

Do a search and look for this mirror question, I asked about this issue after noticing that my brother's '73 US 3.0 had them in a different place than my '70 Swiss 2800.

I think it may have been 'destination/country specific'.....or possibly a daily factory install variation... :roll:

-shanon
 
shanon said:
ah yes, the "where are your mirrors?" question....

Do a search and look for this mirror question, I asked about this issue after noticing that my brother's '73 US 3.0 had them in a different place than my '70 Swiss 2800.

I think it may have been 'destination/country specific'.....or possibly a daily factory install variation... :roll:

-shanon
Click to expand...

Velocewest, Shanon: thank you for your answers.

Shanon:

Thank you for the search function suggestion, but i have already red your topik before i started that topic :) Unfortunately several questions are not answered in that topic, and even the main information in that topic - euro cars has thin mirror at the 'A' pillar - is incorrect, just look at the 1st and the 2nd pictures about euro 2800 cs in my message: the mirrors sometimes at the A pillar, and sometimes behind the vent window.
Also i have seen pictures about usa delivery cars which has the mirror at the A pillar - so it is open question, too.

ETK only shows that the electric mirror wasn't available for the 2800 CS and 3.0 CSL, only for 3.0 CS, CSi, and 2.5 CS. I have checked the 1972/may and 1974/02 and 1975/02 equipment list, but there is no info about the electric mirror - if it is was a serie equipment, or it was an extra.

Unforntunately there is no info about the 2000 CS (or Talbot) mirror - when was it available, etc.

So i am still looking for anwers for my question, i hope someone who has seen/repaired many e9 cars (paul cain, peter s., or anyone else) can answer it.
 
Hi

1... Take care with brochure pictures, a lot of pictures were "recycled" for example a 1975 brochure could easily have 1972 cars in it.
2... Mirror position was dictated in some cases local laws.
3... Mirrors mounted on the front wings (fenders) fell out of favour in the UK in the mid 1970's, I think that was due to legislation.
4... The same styles of door mounted mirror was used on the 2002s of the same period.
5... I don't think electric mirrors were an option in the UK.
6... The position of the mirror on the door isn't "fixed" on 2002s either.
7... I have looked at the spare doors I have from UK cars and guess what.... the mirror mounting holes are all in different places!! Either they were positioned on a whim at the factory depending on what was in the parts bin, or in the UK the dealers screwed them on????

Me personally, I prefer them just behind the quarterlight (vent window) that way the frame isn't in the way when using them, and I can open the quarterlights all the way..2002 has worse ventilation than an E9
Malc
 
Mirror mounting--what is your question?

It would appear you are trying to establish what is the correct type and location for driver side mirrors--if so relax and chose whatever you prefer.

In the early days of BMW--there were a number of little things that were at best inconsistent--all U.S. delivered models were carbuerated, no CSi's, our CS headlamps were crudely lit by sealed beam head-lights--because GE and westinghouse wanted it that way as they hadn't been required to develop anything better such as halogen (thet was therefore a no-no on U.S. cars)--however, I must admit to breaking ranks with law abiding types by opting for better illumination early on--as soon as I could find better lighting--believe I started with aircraft landing lights.

Here in the colonies we were however the beneficiary of more sunroofs, "fine German A/C" and leather interiors than most of the rest of the world--and other slight differences.

One consistent however with U.S. delivered cars was the driver side mirror--it was located in Malcs and my favorite spot--slightly behind the vertical support for the quarter vent window where it didn't interfere with opening it all the way.

Many of us have passenger side mirrors--always installed at the option of the owner of the same type matching the drivers side--I still have the smaller early type in a parts box but opted for the larger many years ago for safety reasons--not a factory thing--in this part of the world it's also a very good thing to have a passenger side mirror if one is driving California Freeways!
 
Malc, blumax:

Thank you for your answer! I am happy that the UK and the USA car mirror, and passanger side mirror questions are now answered, so thank you very much agian.

The only important open question left is the euro 2800 cs mirror position, which is different on every factory picture.
 
Euro 2800 CS mirror location

As Malc has suggested the mirror location was likely dictated by local ordinances in the various countries of delivery.

FWIW--the Euro 2800's that I have seen that found their way to these shores--here in the colonies--were mounted just ahead of the vertical support for the 1/4 vent glass.

I'm still not sure what you are trying to determine. FWIW--If you are planning to drive your Coupe--I hope you do--my suggestion is mount your side mirror(s) in the locations that give you the best side and rear view visibility for safety sake.
 
Re: Euro 2800 CS mirror location

blumax said:
As Malc has suggested the mirror location was likely dictated by local ordinances in the various countries of delivery.

FWIW--the Euro 2800's that I have seen that found their way to these shores--here in the colonies--were mounted just ahead of the vertical support for the 1/4 vent glass.

I'm still not sure what you are trying to determine. FWIW--If you are planning to drive your Coupe--I hope you do--my suggestion is mount your side mirror(s) in the locations that give you the best side and rear view visibility for safety sake.
Click to expand...

Dear blumax,

My goal is to restore a coupe to a 100% original condition. We all know that lots of information like this mirror question is not documented by BMW, and i haven't found anything about this in any bmw book. If the mirrors are in the correct place : the car can be restored 100% original. If the mirrors are "probably at the right place, but not sure", then there is a risk that the car can't be restored to 100% original.

The problem is that if you can't find any holes on the left and/or the right window (previous bad restoration, replaced doors, etc), then it is hard to tell where the mirror was. Same situation with the Talbot mirror - no holes: can't be tell if it was used or not. BMW says they have "lost" the ordered equimpent lists of all e9, and i haven't found any detailed guide about the mirror position. But thanks to you most of my questions are answered :)

Thank you for the 2800 CS mirror info. So it means that for example every car made for the german market have the mirror at the same position: behind the vent window.
Although it means it still be an open question: the 1st and the 2nd picture are cars made for the german market (1st is a 1968 press shot, 2nd is a brochure photo from 12/1968), but the mirror are in different place.
 
Re: Euro 2800 CS mirror location

feri said:
blumax said:
As Malc has suggested the mirror location was likely dictated by local ordinances in the various countries of delivery.

FWIW--the Euro 2800's that I have seen that found their way to these shores--here in the colonies--were mounted just ahead of the vertical support for the 1/4 vent glass.

I'm still not sure what you are trying to determine. FWIW--If you are planning to drive your Coupe--I hope you do--my suggestion is mount your side mirror(s) in the locations that give you the best side and rear view visibility for safety sake.
Click to expand...

Dear blumax,

My goal is to restore a coupe to a 100% original condition. We all know that lots of information like this mirror question is not documented by BMW, and i haven't found anything about this in any bmw book. If the mirrors are in the correct place : the car can be restored 100% original. If the mirrors are "probably at the right place, but not sure", then there is a risk that the car can't be restored to 100% original.

The problem is that if you can't find any holes on the left and/or the right window (previous bad restoration, replaced doors, etc), then it is hard to tell where the mirror was. Same situation with the Talbot mirror - no holes: can't be tell if it was used or not. BMW says they have "lost" the ordered equimpent lists of all e9, and i haven't found any detailed guide about the mirror position. But thanks to you, Malc, shanon, velocewest most of my questions are answered.

Thank you for the 2800 CS mirror info. So it means that for example every car made for the german market have the mirror at the same position: behind the vent window.
Although it means it still be an open question: the 1st and the 2nd picture are cars made for the german market (1st is a 1968 press shot, 2nd is a brochure photo from 12/1968), but the mirror are in different place.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Feri,
I understand what you are trying to do. Again take care with brochure photographs. Many manufacturers use the same car for different markets and often just change the registration plate. I have an old ford brochure from the 1970's where ford was so cheap that they reversed the picture to go from left hand drive to right hand drive and for got to change the badge on the front, left hand drive its a ford, right it's dorf :lol:

Continuing the mirror saga in Japan a wing (fender) mounted mirror is a legal requirement, all Pesonal imports to the UK still have them, where as an official import does not
Malc
 
Correct driver side mirror

Your 2nd picture in your posting is the one that I would believe to be correct and original for your German delivered 2800 CS. This statement I would temper with the two questions: what is the VIN# of your CS and has Mobile Tradition given you its production date? These two factors could possibly influence my prior statement of belief.

However:
1) the mirror is the same as the one shown on the inside cover of an original 2800 CS Owner's Handbook that pictures an early German 2800 CS--all OH'S carried the same picture.
2) an original factory brochure for the 2800 CS--in simple black and white no color--shows a German market 2800 CS with the same mirror--most likely one of the original cars.

Both documents to which I refer are from the original owner and have been in my possession since February 1972 as the second owner of the US spec #16 2800 CS. It was delivered at the factory in Munich 1 October 1969 to a young US Army Officer who ordered the car and took factory delivery while stationed in Germany. I would also add that no special OH's or brochures were ever prepared to my knowledge showing a US spec 2800 CS carrying the side markers that were part of the required equipment. HTH
 
has anyone here used a talbot bullet style mirror (s) up on the door as opposed to the fender? If so might we see pics? I've been considering buying a pair of the chrome Berlin seniors ( convex ) for my 3.0 cs
 
jcmodern said:
has anyone here used a talbot bullet style mirror (s) up on the door as opposed to the fender? If so might we see pics? I've been considering buying a pair of the chrome Berlin seniors ( convex ) for my 3.0 cs
Click to expand...
Bringing up an old post here. I also want to know if the Talbots are a straight swap. I have the small mirror on the drivers side and the big one ( retrofitted ) on the passengerside. If i could use the same mounting holes I would swap for som bullet-type mirrors, preferably Talbots.

I spotted this coupe this weekend and thought the style was right.
60cabe7a25a77c09c3b15b4eaf8ce352.jpg
 
Once you´ve got the mirror thing straightened, get yourself a Bav / E3 and figure out where the antenna goes....

now THAT´s something to loose sleep over ... :D

As for the mirror subject: In some scandinavian countries (don´t remember which) exterior mirrors we´re not mandatory at all (in the 70s). So you migth even find an E9 somewhere without any mirror....
:twisted:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top