Starter issues continued

[decoupe]

The saga continues:

New battery and battery disconnect switch, refurbished starter solenoid and starter motor, new ignition switch and solid ground to the tub at rear seatbelt anchor (seat deleted) - all of the items are new or less then a year from new.

Sometimes it works on the first turn of the key - sometimes not. The symptoms - turn the key and the solenoid clicks but not start. Do that a couple of times and the starter engages like there is no problem. Or I start pushing. Somewhere on the starter circuit is a short. Maybe?

I'm trying to identify some of the wires to the solenoid that aren't on the wiring diagram and disappear into the wiring harness or under the dash.

12 o'clock - Black lead from ignition switch with red wire to coil/ignition module.
3 o'clock - Battery lead from post and heavy black lead into dash above centre console. Removing the second wire cuts all power to the ignition switch in either the run or start position. Disables.
6 o'clock - Pair of heavy black wires that go into wire harness. Removing these wires cuts all power to the ignition switch in either the run or start position. Disables.

I assume there is a start relay in here somewhere connected to the second wire at 3 o'clock and the paired wires at 6 o'clock. I thought only the automatics had one. Where is it located?

Anyway the car drives great and it always (eventually) starts. If I can't find anything I'm going to add a second Odessey (PC 680) battery under the rear seat. It doesn't give any indication of being under powered but that is the last thing that hasn't been replaced, refreshed or checked.

Thanks to all for your patience and help.

Doug

 

[Tyler]

I have the same issue, and my ignition components are generally new as well. The problem occurs maybe 1 out of 10 starts. When it happens, it usually takes only 1-2 more tries to get it going so its never been a real hassle - but I'd really like to know the cause.

 

[lostagn]

Starter issues

My first guess would be the solenoid on the starter.

If you can hear the click, that is the solenoid moving the the starter pinion.
does not meen it has moved it all the way into the flywheel.
two things,
first the solenoid is binding and starts to move but gerts stuck.
Either the bore is worn or there is some oil or something binding.
if it's worn ....replace. if its dirty just try cleaning it.
Don't lube it with oil or grease. will stick even more.

the starter motor gets power to it when the solenoid fully engages
by contacts inside. thus you here the click but nothing happens.

Second the solenoid is engageing the pinion but the contacts that put power to the starter are
a bit pitted or dirty, so engaging it a couple times
gives a better connection and away it goes.

If you hear a whirling or spinning sound it's the starter pinion.

My two cents worth of problems with starters.

This is if all your electrical connections are good

Hope this helps.

 

[nashvillecat]

Re: Starter issues

My first guess would be the solenoid on the starter.

If you can hear the click, that is the solenoid moving the the starter pinion. does not mean it has moved it all the way into the flywheel.
two things, first the solenoid is binding and starts to move but gerts stuck.
Either the bore is worn or there is some oil or something binding. if it's worn ....replace. if its dirty just try cleaning it. Don't lube it with oil or grease. will stick even more. the starter motor gets power to it when the solenoid fully engages by contacts inside. thus you here the click but nothing happens. Second the solenoid is engageing the pinion but the contacts that put power to the starter are a bit pitted or dirty, so engaging it a couple times gives a better connection and away it goes.
If you hear a whirling or spinning sound it's the starter pinion.

It is unclear to me from reading these posts exactly what is happening here. Noise? (Clicking? No clicking?) Starter engaging but not turning engine over? Engine turns over slowly? Engine turns over, but doesn't start? Maybe lost better understands the description of the problem.

As a supplement to Lost's take on this issue, consider the ignition switch. I seem to recall the original switch was replaced and I wonder why. Ignition switches are fairly dependable, but even if they were unused (new old stock), given their age, the original grease can congeal and the hidden contacts can corrode making the switch a virtual roulette wheel of dependability.

 

[decoupe]

The solenoid is new and the starter was refurbished by a reputable pro less than 2 months ago when this started to happen - doesn't mean they didn't screw up but not likely. The ignition switch is new (replaced assuming that was the problem) but the same issues with starting occur whether I use the old or new switch - I've tried both several times. I don't believe it is the starter or ignition switch. The battery is very small but never had any problems turning over the engine. It is getting a full charge from the alternator and there is no drain while running - the electric windows don't even budge the needle on the ammeter when operated.

I think the random none starts are a result of insufficient current to the starter - meaning the pinion will engage but not turn the engine. When it works it starts perfectly - lot's of torque. The occasional and random nature of the problem makes me think it is an intermittent short but where? If there is a starter relay somewhere then maybe there is a poor connection or poor contact. Still looking.

Thanks,

Doug

 

[Tom M]

Doug:
I think you have unfortunately spent a lot of time and money replacing parts that were not the problem. The symptoms you have are the classic description of a poor connection in the high current path. I suggest you spend a little time instrumenting and diagnosing the problem. It doesn't require much - just a simple 12v test light.
Tom

 

[Honolulu]

you said "short"... but this is long(ish)

Guys (and ladies too if present), not to nitpick but when attempting to diagnose, correct language must be used.

It's not "Somewhere on the starter circuit is a SHORT" which implies that current is going to ground (a complete though unintended circuit). It's an OPEN - current is not flowing.

Not long ago I went through something similar with my 1985 BMW K100RS cycle: it would die occasionally at idle, then not start. Very dim dash lights. I removed, cleaned and reinstalled the starter, battery, alternator, ignition switch, to no avail. Removed and bench tested several relays. Bought and installed a new battery. Finally one evening I was mucking about in the garage with a non-start bike and I noticed that the ground wire from trans case back to battery negative was quite warm. Aha... heat means resistance... something isn't flowing the way it should, or too much current is flowing.

What I discovered was that although I had removed the 8 gage ground wire then cleaned both ends and sandpapered the ring terminal where it connected to the trans case, cleaned the trans case and battery terminals (what could go wrong, eh?)... the wire strands under the crimped ring connector had accumulated corrosion sufficient that they didn't make contact with the ring terminal. And you couldn't even see the corrosion that caused the problem. Three bucks and change at the marine supply store had a new nicely conductive ground wire on the bike, which cleared the no-start problem and got my horn working well again.

SOOOOO... I blelieve what's going on here is a bad connection, a SHORT. It's an intermittent short - the worst kind. A connection can look good, but not flow current. Someone has got to follow the path of the juice from battery positive, all the way through and back to battery negative, and check for continuity at each connection. I suspect the rebuilt starter/solenoid connections, and would also check the straps from engine block to body, and body to battery negative. And I mean check both sides and both ends at each connection.

Hope this helps.

 

[decoupe]

If I'm right, the only ground from the engine to the chassis is the strap from the block to the transmission so I'm going to add a ground strap from the block to the stock ground point where the battery used to be located. Easy to do and cheap and I'll know I have a current path to ground.

Thanks to all for the comments and advice. Give me a wrench any day.

Doug

 

[cpeavey]

I had a somewhat similar problem with my starter about a year ago. The symptoms were that on some attempts to start, I would only hear a faint clicking that could have been another relay, not the solenoid itself. It didn't happen every time but it was getting worse. I got it to start a couple of times by first wiggling the spade connectors on the solenoid.

I finally bit the bullet and just reconstructed the small section of wiring harness that includes those two small wires to the solenoid with all new wire, connectors and vinyl sheathing. The old wire was really crispy. No problems since.

I also vote for a bad connection somewhere in the wiring.

Charlie
'74 3.0CS