VW is in a Heap of trouble
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I read that yesterday and thought that is pretty sleazy.
I think I already made the point that software in cars is evil...
What does it mean that VW will not admit wrongdoing? Put the programmer in a room with me for 30 minutes and he will admit he painted the Mona Lisa.
I think I already made the point that software in cars is evil...
What does it mean that VW will not admit wrongdoing? Put the programmer in a room with me for 30 minutes and he will admit he painted the Mona Lisa.
Screw the buyer/public whether you are a car company or a drug company. Admit no guilt, no one goes to prison, everyone keeps their job, pay a fine of a couple billion $$$$s - a miniscule % of your gross(in every way) profit, and continue business as usual.
Do you want to be idling on the freeway in back of a VW spewing 40 times more particulates than it should. Or taking a drug that J&J just pulled from the market that made it $32 Billion in profits and only paid a $2 Billion dollar fine. The drug caused strokes in older people and young boys to grow enormous breasts. And J&J lied about the side effects and fudged the research studies. Hmmm, do I smell cigarette smoke?
I know, I know, this is not all about cars. But do you think the other car companies wouldn't do the same as VW if they thought they could get away with it. Well actually they probably have in one form or another. Lying about gas mileage for example.
Steve
Do you want to be idling on the freeway in back of a VW spewing 40 times more particulates than it should. Or taking a drug that J&J just pulled from the market that made it $32 Billion in profits and only paid a $2 Billion dollar fine. The drug caused strokes in older people and young boys to grow enormous breasts. And J&J lied about the side effects and fudged the research studies. Hmmm, do I smell cigarette smoke?
I know, I know, this is not all about cars. But do you think the other car companies wouldn't do the same as VW if they thought they could get away with it. Well actually they probably have in one form or another. Lying about gas mileage for example.
Steve
rants...
...and the young a**wipe that just jacked up the AIDS/cancer drug from $15 a pill to $750..nice. I'm sure his mother is proud.
Shame on VW. Just when I thought they were getting it together. One can only hope that is the only shortcut they are guilty of.
...and the young a**wipe that just jacked up the AIDS/cancer drug from $15 a pill to $750..nice. I'm sure his mother is proud.
Shame on VW. Just when I thought they were getting it together. One can only hope that is the only shortcut they are guilty of.
I can't see how they will escape with just a puny 7 Billion set aside when they have to deal with the US class action lawsuits and the EPA fines, let alone the rest of the world's gripes. I wonder if the vehicles will run reliably when the software is set to EPA compliant mode? WHat kind of depreciation is a Diesel VW going to see come trade in time. I'd expect no dealer wants one on their lot now. Good thing Germany has such a surplus of cash and no growing social demands …..oops forgot about that.
Another too big to fail.
Another too big to fail.
Too Big to Fail! That was the joke going around during the 2012 presidential campaign about Gov. Chris Christi should run.
Is VW TBTF? We shall see.
Is VW TBTF? We shall see.
I don't think VW is too big to fail; they are only a minor part of the global financial system and there is a fair amount of excess manufacturing capacity in the auto industry.
That said, I don't think VW will die, but I could see a ten year hiatus from the US.
That said, I don't think VW will die, but I could see a ten year hiatus from the US.
CEO resigned, big deal, change the sock puppets. I want to see people in jail.
BP may have been negligence, this is worse, and immoral.
BP may have been negligence, this is worse, and immoral.
On the money Arde.
I tend to agree, but how does the US prosecute a German engineer for writing software that thwarts US environmental rules?
And if we in the US can do this, are we going to allow foreign governments to prosecute US citizens for product development decisions?
And if we in the US can do this, are we going to allow foreign governments to prosecute US citizens for product development decisions?
How about we define this software as an automotive computer virus? Thwarting the emissions test is just a way of ensuring the virus can propagate into the US. The virus action is NOX delivery in illegal concentrations.
Markus Hess was the first hacker tracked back to Germany and prosecuted even though the hacks were on US computers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cuckoo's_Egg
I am not a lawyer as you can tell (I did not charge for the above opinion).
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They haven't even gotten to the bigger issue yet. The "cheating" was done for marketing purposes, not so much about emissions. "Clean diesel" is the only way they were going to sell diesel vehicles in the U.S., and why do people want diesels, because they get better fuel mileage. They either can't run their emissions equipment all the time and get the same fuel mileage or the equipment wouldn't last very long if they did, so they only turn it on when its getting tested. This allows them to keep their fuel mileage and the "clean diesel" brand, without it, the mileage drops and the "clean diesel" becomes just diesel, which has a negative connotation in the states. With lower fuel mileage, the consumer has more choices when they buy a new car and VW doesn't sell nearly as many vehicles.
The current issue... VW lied about emissions testing. The BIGGER issue... VW lied about the kind of vehicle they were selling. They can't fix the problem with emissions without making all the vehicles different than when they were first sold, which means class action suits galore.
They'll either have to buy back the cars or pay each owner an amount that compensates for a lower resell value, besides all the fines they'll have to pay governments.
The current issue... VW lied about emissions testing. The BIGGER issue... VW lied about the kind of vehicle they were selling. They can't fix the problem with emissions without making all the vehicles different than when they were first sold, which means class action suits galore.
They'll either have to buy back the cars or pay each owner an amount that compensates for a lower resell value, besides all the fines they'll have to pay governments.
I agree this deception was undertaken to enable an increase in diesel sales in the U.S. That said, VW doesn't have and cannot get enough money to pay for all the damages.
It is not only the diminished value to the consumer, but also the loss in value of car and parts inventories held by any dealer, the loss in value of the VW sales franchise businesses and finance businesses in the U.S. the diminished value of the collateral held by lenders who made car loans and floor stock loans, and the inevitable claims of injury due to the extra pollution caused by these vehicles. Add to this the federal and California fines and penalties. Then there will be a call for treble damages under the RICO statutes. All of these claims will find their way to the courts and VW will have to retain and pay lawyers to defend themselves and work out a deal in each of these situations.
My view is that VW does not have the money to pay for all of this and remain a viable business. And, there will be a great deal of resistance to the notion of liquidating to pay U.S. consumers. VW employs 600,000 people, is a huge employer in Germany where industrial employment is valued more highly than it is here, and owes billions to various foreign banks. Moreover, the Piech and Porsche families, the German state of Saxony, and the Qataris are not going to surrender all their share value for this. And of course, German taxpayers are not going to pay higher taxes to pay for this either.
So, I don't think we will get satisfaction by seeking to prosecute the engineers and VW executives who perpetuated this deception upon us. And I don't think VW can come up with enough money to pay for all the damage it has caused.
Where does that leave us? I continue to think a ten year VW holiday from the U.S. market is a distinct possibility. In any event, I am glad I don't own any of their products.
It is not only the diminished value to the consumer, but also the loss in value of car and parts inventories held by any dealer, the loss in value of the VW sales franchise businesses and finance businesses in the U.S. the diminished value of the collateral held by lenders who made car loans and floor stock loans, and the inevitable claims of injury due to the extra pollution caused by these vehicles. Add to this the federal and California fines and penalties. Then there will be a call for treble damages under the RICO statutes. All of these claims will find their way to the courts and VW will have to retain and pay lawyers to defend themselves and work out a deal in each of these situations.
My view is that VW does not have the money to pay for all of this and remain a viable business. And, there will be a great deal of resistance to the notion of liquidating to pay U.S. consumers. VW employs 600,000 people, is a huge employer in Germany where industrial employment is valued more highly than it is here, and owes billions to various foreign banks. Moreover, the Piech and Porsche families, the German state of Saxony, and the Qataris are not going to surrender all their share value for this. And of course, German taxpayers are not going to pay higher taxes to pay for this either.
So, I don't think we will get satisfaction by seeking to prosecute the engineers and VW executives who perpetuated this deception upon us. And I don't think VW can come up with enough money to pay for all the damage it has caused.
Where does that leave us? I continue to think a ten year VW holiday from the U.S. market is a distinct possibility. In any event, I am glad I don't own any of their products.
Glad to see BMW is not involved in this garbage:
https://www.bmwcca.org/news/reports-try-drag-bmw-vw-diesel-scandal
I note the BMWCCA Magazine sees this in somewhat the same light that I do:
"The forgotten millions who are holding the bag right now are the diesel vehicle owners as well as the Volkswagen and Audi dealers around the world who are sitting on diesel inventory they can’t move. Does Volkswagen even have the money to pay the expected fines in various countries, settle the inevitable lawsuits, and make things right with the diesel vehicle owners and dealers?"
https://www.bmwcca.org/news/reports-try-drag-bmw-vw-diesel-scandal
I note the BMWCCA Magazine sees this in somewhat the same light that I do:
"The forgotten millions who are holding the bag right now are the diesel vehicle owners as well as the Volkswagen and Audi dealers around the world who are sitting on diesel inventory they can’t move. Does Volkswagen even have the money to pay the expected fines in various countries, settle the inevitable lawsuits, and make things right with the diesel vehicle owners and dealers?"
Well..
I don't know about all of this and there are plenty of examples of large corporations "screwing" the average Joe in many different (and creative) ways. I would be interested in hearing VW's side of the story. Anything the EPA does is automatically suspect in my book. If VW can lie I don't think it's above the EPA to tell falsehoods, who knows, maybe it's retaliation for WWII. Just sayin'
I don't know about all of this and there are plenty of examples of large corporations "screwing" the average Joe in many different (and creative) ways. I would be interested in hearing VW's side of the story. Anything the EPA does is automatically suspect in my book. If VW can lie I don't think it's above the EPA to tell falsehoods, who knows, maybe it's retaliation for WWII. Just sayin'
Given that VW has done little to defend itself, I am now (prompted by Peter's question) beginning to wonder if I have been deceived into my outrage.
The EPA's notice of violation letter states that VW's initially stated that the findings of the WVU/State of California studies did not indicate that its cars were not compliant. The letter details the back and forth on this, but the letter flatly states that VW only admitted it was wrong when the EPA's NOV letter was issued preventing VW from selling its 2016 diesel cars in the US.
This tactic, combined with VW's lack of a defense, raises the possibility that the EPA, et. al., have told VW not to defend themselves. Rather, in order to put this issue behind them VW must show remorse and accept its punishment.
That's preposterous, isn't it?
The EPA's notice of violation letter states that VW's initially stated that the findings of the WVU/State of California studies did not indicate that its cars were not compliant. The letter details the back and forth on this, but the letter flatly states that VW only admitted it was wrong when the EPA's NOV letter was issued preventing VW from selling its 2016 diesel cars in the US.
This tactic, combined with VW's lack of a defense, raises the possibility that the EPA, et. al., have told VW not to defend themselves. Rather, in order to put this issue behind them VW must show remorse and accept its punishment.
That's preposterous, isn't it?
Either (both) parties are highly capable of ill intentions.
Sell the defective fleet to Putin, invading armies are not subject to emissions testing.