I am going to look again, but I have a 1972 Bavaria and for the life of me, I cannot find a rear sway bar or signs there was one. I own two e24's and so know where to look. Anybody know if this was an option or when it became standard or when I became senile?
When did our cars come with a sway bar?
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windnsea
Well-Known Member
I checked my BMW literature from 1970-1972 for E3's and there is actually no mention of either front or rear sway bars in the technical description or drawing/picture of the rear suspension. There is, however a picture of the front sway bar!
In the factory repair manual it lists all E3's and E9's as coming with front sway bars, but in the section for rear suspension it states that the rear axel "special version heavy duty suspension (in conjunction with the same for the front axel) for trailer hauling and 'for severe operating conditions' " has an 18mm stabilizer bar! Checking through Real OEM.com shows that from early to late E3's the rear bar was 16mm! Go figure!!
Have never heard of an E3 coming to America without both though.
In the factory repair manual it lists all E3's and E9's as coming with front sway bars, but in the section for rear suspension it states that the rear axel "special version heavy duty suspension (in conjunction with the same for the front axel) for trailer hauling and 'for severe operating conditions' " has an 18mm stabilizer bar! Checking through Real OEM.com shows that from early to late E3's the rear bar was 16mm! Go figure!!
Have never heard of an E3 coming to America without both though.
So image how dumb I look returning 16mm poly bushings because I have no sway bar. I think my car must be a 71. Gonna hunt down the original owner and see if he recalls being presented with the rear sway bar as an option. Many thanks.
DerSchwede
Well-Known Member
The following is Euro spec:
The 2800 had a rear 16 mm sway bar until spring 1971.
Between 1971 and August 1973 all models had a 17 mm front sway bar.
After that the 3.0/3.3 models had a 23 mm up front.
From 1968 to 1973 the front 17 mm and 16 mm rear sway bar (only as a pair) was optional for the 2500.
After 1971 the 16 mm rear was optional for all models.
Some L-models had different rear sway bars as an option (18 mm).
However I can't say if the US Bavaria (2.8 and 3.0) had the same sway bars as the corresponding Euro models...
Cheers
The 2800 had a rear 16 mm sway bar until spring 1971.
Between 1971 and August 1973 all models had a 17 mm front sway bar.
After that the 3.0/3.3 models had a 23 mm up front.
From 1968 to 1973 the front 17 mm and 16 mm rear sway bar (only as a pair) was optional for the 2500.
After 1971 the 16 mm rear was optional for all models.
Some L-models had different rear sway bars as an option (18 mm).
However I can't say if the US Bavaria (2.8 and 3.0) had the same sway bars as the corresponding Euro models...
Cheers
I don't know about what literature "specifies" but here is what I'd seen in the states:
2500: almost always front sway, never rear
2800: always front, NIVOMAT rear (forgot about THOSE)
3.0 (Bavaria) and 3.0S: always front, seldom rear
3.0Si: often both
the really fat front sway appeared on the the Si version
and the early rear sway was fairly whimpie.
I have some random memory about scavanging fronts and rears from other model cars (E9, E12 and E12-based E24)
2500: almost always front sway, never rear
2800: always front, NIVOMAT rear (forgot about THOSE)
3.0 (Bavaria) and 3.0S: always front, seldom rear
3.0Si: often both
the really fat front sway appeared on the the Si version
and the early rear sway was fairly whimpie.
I have some random memory about scavanging fronts and rears from other model cars (E9, E12 and E12-based E24)
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DerSchwede
Well-Known Member
Have a look at this 1969 article from R&T :
http://www.seniorsix.org/e3info/road_track2/road_track2_2.html
That is how all the Series 1 cars were equipped as standard.
On the E24 Bimmerforum, we have a member who gracioulsy runs your VIN and gives you the list of options on your car, that would answer the question. My original owner registered the car in 9/72 and it has the rear lenses with the one white light horizontal, yet I think it is a 2.8 and not 3.0 liter Bavaria. Curse you Max Hoffman.
Possibly, but the best way to tell is to check the trailing arms for evidence of previous bracket installation, the E3s had started to evolve into comfort-oriented plush-mobiles and even installation of the early, small diameter rear sway on your car would noticably tighten it up.
PaulinPa
Well-Known Member
The 75 3.0si I recently "recycled" had front and rear bars.Don't know if they were original.
There is no evidence my car ever had one. I am fairly handy and could probably fit one. I am unclear of the difference in benefits of a sway bar versus a strut bar. NoName Engineering sells a rear strut bar for the E3 and I have been thinking about it but not clear on what the benefit will be. I want the car to be tight but I don't want to go crazyor spend the money for only a slight difference. Besides I have my M6 for that. Opinions????
MMercury
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Sway bars go by many different names including "antisway bars" and "stabilizer bar." "Strut bar" is more typically associated with a structural member that ties the tops of the struts together and may brace/triangulate or stiffen the frame/suspension.
Your question regarding the benefits is not easy to answer as it is very subjective. The answer is also dependent upon many considerations such as your intended use of the vehicle, desired ride quality and what other equipment and upgrades are on the vehicle. These upgrades may include springs, shocks/struts, wheels and tires - all of which can affect lateral grip.
Sway bars come in different sizes and some are adjustable. To a limited extent, they may even interfere with the free movement of the independent suspension, as distinct from a live/ one-piece solid axle. Sway bars also add weight to the car and more typically sway bars are found on heavier vehicles. My US spec '72 E3 had both front and rear bars and I personally found that car a better handler than E9's I drove at the time. The fact that the car was equipped with much wider than stock rally rubber may have also had something to do with it. However, it is impossible to say that another substantially lighter and "bar-less" E3 would have felt any less balanced.
If I had an early model E3 that was bone stock and shod with the original skinny wheels and tires I might be content to leave the vehicle as is. If there were a few upgrades such as larger wheels and tires, and the bushings and mounts were still pliable - favoring a preference for more spirited driving - I would be inclined to fit some bars from a later model and give things a whirl. That being said, I have mixed and matched many suspension parts from various cars over the years - with equally mixed results. :sad:
I have heard it theorized that the reason Hoffman had the US spec cars equipped with extra/different suspension components was due to satisfy the "then" perceived demands of the typical North American consumer vs. his European counterpart. North American consumers may have been willing to pay more for creature comforts like electric windows and air conditioning, and these features, along with smog equipment and safety legislation tended to make for heavier North American gross vehicle weights. Driving conditions may have also been a serious consideration since "typical" European roads may have been estimated by the Hoffmaniacs as more varied than those found in North America. (Despite wonderful Autobahns and Autostradas, Europe probably had/has more cobblestone roads than might be found in NAmerica.) Of course I can think of some North American roads that have enough pot holes that they might be confused with off-roading. I have not heard anyone factor in currency disparities/fluctuations and duties, but I would not be surprised to learn Max's minions were influenced by that too.
There is a metric ton and a half of discussion on this topic in the archives -- and even more from the 100's of aftermarket merchants and would be Chapmans, Mansels and Piquets. :roll::roll::roll:
http://www.whiteline.com.au/automotive_suspension.php?gclid=COG89-qdjrQCFUdxQgod0zgAig
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12383
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9710
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9381
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9277
Much food for thought. This car is a one P.O. who kept it stock and basically gave it to me to keep that way. Currently I am replacing the shocks with Bilsteins all around. Entire front end is being rebuilt incl every bushing, control arm, tie rod etc. I am surprised that all is original and not in bad shape after 41 years and 112K miles. Tires remain at 14. I will give it a run and if I want more, contemplate a rear sway bar. From the readings above, strut brace adds little. Trailing arm bushings, should I change them, seems like a hassle in view of condition of other bushings I am changing that don't look bad.
Note, the best way to GENERALLY characterize the handling "improvements" with sway bars
on E3's and E9's that I can come up with:
adding a sway on the front can minimize "dive" in spirited (often downhill mountain) driving
adding a sway on the rear can reduce "roll" in spirited driving
and to add to another post-er's observation:
prior to mods, in all cases I've found the early E3's to be better handlers than E9's,
but the newer (and heavier) they got (read: 3.0Si) they lost that edge.
If I wanted to "build" a great handling E3 I'd start with a 72 or older.
When the slight body/nose change happened they also did some suspension mods
up front that made 'em more "family sedan-like."
f.w.i.w.
on E3's and E9's that I can come up with:
adding a sway on the front can minimize "dive" in spirited (often downhill mountain) driving
adding a sway on the rear can reduce "roll" in spirited driving
and to add to another post-er's observation:
prior to mods, in all cases I've found the early E3's to be better handlers than E9's,
but the newer (and heavier) they got (read: 3.0Si) they lost that edge.
If I wanted to "build" a great handling E3 I'd start with a 72 or older.
When the slight body/nose change happened they also did some suspension mods
up front that made 'em more "family sedan-like."
f.w.i.w.
Sadly by the time I am done with the front rebuild, I will have snow on the ground. I just had a complete paint job so the car will remain my "bubble-car" (Seinfeld reference) until spring.