Why E9 originality is undervalued (was Dream on: $58,900???)

JFENG

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Moving the discussion here out of consideration for Mark at Huntingridge motors.

The question: why don't BMW collectors appreciate originality as much as say Ferrari owners.

Reason #1: BMW collectors are more focused on the driving experience over the 'showing' experience. BMWCCA is many times over more focused on competitive driving than JCNA. The only premium marque club that's similar, IMHO, is PCA where modifications are also widely accepted. Consider this, I have a number of cars that have non-sychronized transmissions. Slow, balky, difficult to drive, not great for getting FTD at an autocross. But, for me the value of these cars is in that vintage crash box experience, not how fast I can make them go. That, IMHO, is very different from what attracts most people to BMW's, which is style, and performance.

Reason #2: Perhaps people don't appreciate originality as much on E9's due to the way BMWCCA manages their judged concours events? BMW events tend more toward the "clean car" approach whilst JCNA, for example, puts a huge emphasis on originality (and of course condition). One reason people support this is that it gives sellers and buyers a uniform, objective set of criteria for assessing a vehicle's condition, configuration and value. I'm sure the value of this approach took decades to become accepted.

JCNA even standardized their autocross (slalom) for the same reasons. Sure it's fraught with issues (what's the correction factor for temperature and differences in asphalt makeup or altitude?). Nevertheless, it gives people a yardstick (as imperfect as it may be) to measure something. Once you can measure it, it's a lot easier to assign value based on the metric.


Reason #3: if you look at the value of BMW's that are truly rare and judged along side Gullwings, SS100's, 135M's etc., originality is HUGELY important. I'm not aware that it's popular to restomod 328's and 327's. E9's are still far too common for people to put a lot of value in originality.
 
Sing me up for reasons #1 and #3. I've never been part of a judged auto show involving european marques, so I can't speak to #2 at all, but can see why that might be a reason for some folks.

And I think the end of your #3 is quite important. There are a comparatively high number of E9s, with a comparatively low number of performance (CSL) versions. If you have a CSL, that is more likely to be a highly valued original some day. Similarly, if you have a numbers-matching 1967 GTO sports coupe with the 400HO motor, you should keep it that way; but if you have a base hardtop with the 389 and the 2-speed auto (yuck), maybe not so much.

This whole conversation in any event has me thinking about the term "originality" anyway. Does replacing the original AC compressor compromise it? The radio? What about removing the emissions equipment (if so equipped from the factory)? Moving the battery to the rear? Replacing normal seats with period-correct Scheels? There is a continuum, and even though I would imagine Ferrari guys might balk at any modifications, I think it's likely at least some of the folks pushing originality here are not at the same place on the scale (but I might be wrong).
 
Yes at BMWCCA Oktoberfest last year they had a concours original class and I don't think anyone entered a vintage car in it - so it also seems to fall back on the membership participation (or lack thereof).
 
mods

I agree with most of above. I have feelings for all situations. My low mileage ceylon cs is going to be kept stock except I've changed out the fan and wiring for reliability but have kept all original equipment so it can be put back if it is ever shown (don't know if it would matter and I don't care that much about winning anything...it would be just for fun). Jabberjaw has and is going through significant mods and I hope it will still be worth something someday...but i know I'm losing money, even on that beauty. My taiga CSL is going to be kept stock, except I'm changing out the AC system with coupeking's new kit. The ceylon CSL has a BAT II kit added by a previous owner and the interior has been changed to a velour standard CS interior by previous owner....but I'm changing the interior back to what I'm told was the "original" interior but is not the standard scheels...it had Scheel 400s with the orange alpina-like material on them... and keeping the BAT kit on for now.

So, i guess I'm doing a little bit of everything...as for value...who knows. I hope I never have to find out.
Chuck
 
Yes at BMWCCA Oktoberfest last year they had a concours original class and I don't think anyone entered a vintage car in it - so it also seems to fall back on the membership participation (or lack thereof).

Well, there you have it. If people don't care to participate in that class it implies most buyers probably don't care either.

This is a good thing IMHO, because the Jag way can be a bit stiffling.
 
Even in BMWCCA concours where we have stock and modified classes, there aren't enough qualified judges who know the difference between the two, that is the biggest problem. Out here Paul Cain and Murray are the most knowledgable but we need other experts to volunteer to be judges.
 
someone needs to

write a judges guide. Ask BMWCCA to pay them for the job. CCA is 25x bigger than JCNA so they can afford it.

Or someone write

the definitive book on E9s

I would pay a .couple hundred for it.
 
write a judges guide. Ask BMWCCA to pay them for the job. CCA is 25x bigger than JCNA so they can afford it.

Or someone write

the definitive book on E9s

I would pay a .couple hundred for it.

IMO don’t even consider it. It would turn our coupes into a bunch of Garage Queens that get trailered to meets and that pretty much takes away “The ultimate driving machine” idea or enjoyment. ~ John Buchtenkirch
 
Garage queens--not all that are shown

For example--BLUMAX was entered in the concours at the "Legends of the Autobahn" last August while enjoying the 37th anniversary of his 1st drive to Monterey in 1974. I suggest that our coupes should be driven.

BLUMAX just turned 420,650 miles and remains original with all chrome trim as it came from the factory and interior wise all surfaces very original including carpet. Its condition seems to hold a high level of appeal wherever shown or simply displayed at our weekly Cars 'n Coffee in nearby Irvine CA where 4-500 hundred cars show up weekly for this fun to attend gathering.

Thats JMT on driving and showing as BLUMAX has appeared and has been honored at several Concours here in California in spite of miles--all seem to agree it wears its patina gracefully.
 
IMO don’t even consider it. It would turn our coupes into a bunch of Garage Queens that get trailered to meets and that pretty much takes away “The ultimate driving machine” idea or enjoyment. ~ John Buchtenkirch

I really have to disagree with this sentiment. For example:

"Ferraris were meant to be driven." That's the mantra of the vast majority of Ferrari owners, yet here in the NYC area, plenty of cars show up for regional concours events. I personally know many that look like garage queens (95+ points) yet are not treated as such with respect to driving enjoyment. Yes, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive! Nothing proves this more than seeing GTOs storm around the track at Cavallino Classic, then on the show field the next day.
 
write a judges guide. Ask BMWCCA to pay them for the job. CCA is 25x bigger than JCNA so they can afford it.

Or someone write

the definitive book on E9s

I would pay a .couple hundred for it.

Here's a start by example:

http://www.fca-mar.com/attachments/FCA_Judging_Sheet_Exterior.pdf
http://www.fca-mar.com/attachments/FCA_Judging_Sheet_Interior.pdf
http://www.fca-mar.com/attachments/FCA_Judging_Sheet_Engine_Chassis.pdf

I think Chris hit the nail on the head. There aren't enough qualified judges to distinguish between stock and modified classes. Well, if we as owners can't tell the difference, then what does that say about preserving the marque?
 
It also doesn't help that there were many possible combinations of features, powertrains, and running changes over the years of production. Considering they never made even a 10th as many Ferraris or Maseratis, and of those only a few mechanical (non-cosmetic) configurations, it is vastly easier to make a guide for those marques. Similarly, the Corvette guys have a ton of information about originality because they have full plant support and many, many more people.
 
Original is great! Modified car's also! - Room for both as plenty were made - 30,000 plus?

Not as if E9's were ever rare Ferrari Daytona's ..

Though do wonder how many are still alive now. Anyone have an estimate?

Around 140 E9's on road in UK according to 'how many left.' Wonder how many around the world?

http://howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=bmw+3.0

There were around 1400 Ferrari Daytonas made - maybe 1200 still left now? 8,000 E9's???
 
There has been quite a bit of discussion about that over the years. most think between 10~30% of the original batch remain in various states of repair. Since these vehicles were frequently daily drivers and they had rust problems, they had a fairly high attrition rate.
 
Perhaps I'm not so far off with my guesstimate then.
Seems still plenty left - so why not do some cool mods!

Would love to see a proper hot rod version with flames & the engine bursting from the hood - tail pipes on side too. vvvrrrooom.. heh heh.
 
Looks like from the judges sheet that a number matching engine only carries one point maximum deduction....

When I was looking for a car over the past 2 years stock or modified was not a determining factor for desire, it was price vs rust. I saw that the cars that had desireable modifications were better kept in most cases and asking more.

I ended up with a rather stock 73 CS based on lack of rust vs price, and have already added some of the mods I have been pining for. I like the stock CS look, but I love the lowered agresive look with 16" Alpinas.

My lust has been based on this Picture from Shawn:
http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3310&page=11
About half way down....
 
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