WTB Kugelfischer Pump & Slide Throttle

lafngrvy

lafngrvy

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I am starting the restoration of my CSL for competition next summer and would like to convert it from Webers to Kugelfischer FI. Does anyone have, or know of any of these parts for sale?

Any help or leads are appreciated.

Steve
 
lafngrvy said:
I am starting the restoration of my CSL for competition next summer and would like to convert it from Webers to Kugelfischer FI. Does anyone have, or know of any of these parts for sale?

Any help or leads are appreciated.

Steve
Click to expand...

Boy that is a very hard item to find! I have been told that Alfa Romeo also used Kugelfischer but all my BMW sources tell me that those parts vanished years ago?
 
The only BMW 6 cylinder I know of that used K-F mechanical injection was the M88 in the M1.
Yeah - Good luck.
 
Good luck with that. I have seen KF pumps that go onsale on German eBay for $$$$$$$.
As I understand they are a pain to get up and running and to service (there are a couple of places*that still sell and service the KF's). Unless you have a vintage E9 racer with an original M49 *you would be better off just getting an 3.5 EFI setup.*
 
I am finding from people overseas (DE & GB) that these parts are pretty much non-existent, and when available are very expensive. The 2 most recent sales were for 15,000 pounds, and 11,000 Euros for the pump, slide throttle, trumpets, and drives. :(

They work very well, if setup properly, and produce prodigious amounts of power, typically 350-360 HP out of a 3.5 ltr, 2 valve engine.

Thanks to those who offered leads. I plan to track each one, but I may need to resign myself to Webers. The rules for most vintage groups specify 'period correct' parts, so the idea of putting an M88 engine with electronic FI won't pass muster. Too bad, it would be cheaper, more reliable, and develop more power.

Steve
 
Many Maserati owners removed their Lucas mechanical injection systems and installed Webers mainly because the Lucas delivery pumps were so unreliable. I would imagine that a Lucas fuel distributor paired up with a modern Bosch electric delivery pump would work quite well?

There should be a few available at reasonable prices? Check with Kinsler in Michigan.
 
Blind leads

lafngrvy said:
I am starting the restoration of my CSL for competition next summer and would like to convert it from Webers to Kugelfischer FI. Does anyone have, or know of any of these parts for sale? Any help or leads are appreciated. Steve
Click to expand...

In don't know that much about finding spares. You asked for leads, here are a few blind suggestions (in no particular order.)
Good luck. :wink:

BMW_M1_pump.jpg

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Ingram Enterprises in Washington?
Ingram Enterprises, Inc.15613 Peterson Road Bldg C Burlington, WA 98233 Wes: 360.707.5701

http://015cb80.netsolhost.com/pricesheet.htm

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OR
Have you tried Kuglefischer directly? They still exist. FAG Kugelfischer

Georg-Schäfer-Straße 30
97421 Schweinfurt, Germany

Get Directions
- schaeffler.de
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OR

There is an outfit in Illinois advertising themselves as experts at rebuilding Kugelfischers. "Precision Auto Research" Bensenville, IL. Maybe they have a spare with your name and number on it.

http://precisionautoresearch.com/PER...romoposter.pdf
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OR How about Koller and Schwemmer? http://www.koller.de/oldnew.en,199.html

They "claim": exclusive and individual production of Kugelfischer fuel injection pumps. Whatever that means.Youtube of injection pump disassembly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp8qTJaAKMU

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OR maybe these folks can help out: http://www.kolb-motorsport.de/


Renneinspritzung%20BMW%20M20%20001.jpg



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0087.JPG
 
Well, the final nail has been put in the coffin of my search. I heard back from my engine builder today who says his source at BMW says, "1) expect to pay around $20,000.00 for the Kugelfischer pump and throttle assembly. He doesn't have one, but says no one wants to part with them. Ouch. 2) He recounted a story from the last vintage race (probably PVGP) where there were several CSL's present. The ones with the Kugel. spent their time in the pits getting things to run, the ones with Webers spent their time on the track. The Kugel. injection is terribly sensitive to EVERYTHING, Ray says you have to make them run rich on the straights to keep from going lean in the turns, and a car that's running good Fri. afternoon will hole the pistons in Sat. morning practice if the temp has dropped off."

Not much more to add.:(
 
lafngrvy said:
Well, the final nail has been put in the coffin of my search. I heard back from my engine builder today who says his source at BMW says, "1) expect to pay around $20,000.00 for the Kugelfischer pump and throttle assembly. He doesn't have one, but says no one wants to part with them. Ouch. 2) He recounted a story from the last vintage race (probably PVGP) where there were several CSL's present. The ones with the Kugel. spent their time in the pits getting things to run, the ones with Webers spent their time on the track. The Kugel. injection is terribly sensitive to EVERYTHING, Ray says you have to make them run rich on the straights to keep from going lean in the turns, and a car that's running good Fri. afternoon will hole the pistons in Sat. morning practice if the temp has dropped off."

Not much more to add.:(
Click to expand...

Actually MMercury's link to Koller & Schwermer led me to a new pump for 1790 euros, not bad, and the manifold is easily fabricated. I have a local guy that builds them for 2002s and plans to build six cylinder kits soon.

Davi
 
lafngrvy said:
Well, the final nail has been put in the coffin of my search. I heard back from my engine builder today who says his source at BMW says, "1) expect to pay around $20,000.00 for the Kugelfischer pump and throttle assembly. He doesn't have one, but says no one wants to part with them. Ouch. 2) He recounted a story from the last vintage race (probably PVGP) where there were several CSL's present. The ones with the Kugel. spent their time in the pits getting things to run, the ones with Webers spent their time on the track. The Kugel. injection is terribly sensitive to EVERYTHING, Ray says you have to make them run rich on the straights to keep from going lean in the turns, and a car that's running good Fri. afternoon will hole the pistons in Sat. morning practice if the temp has dropped off."

Not much more to add.:(
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I said. There is only one reason to have a KF pump, if you have an all original vintage CS racer with it's original pump then yes you would want to maintain that. But there is no advantage to having one in a repro racer. Those things suck gas like nobody's business anyway. If you want FI get a modern Motronic EFI setup. That's what I am doing.
 
CSL Injection

I think that there is a misunderstanding about just how the pumps work, a good exhaust temp gauge, or a newer wide band oxygen sensor would allow even the unskilled mechanic to be taught just how to adjust the mixture on the units. If your plan is to really hot rod the injection pump on a hot rod engine then be prepared to pay someone to modify a unit to does just that. I did a tii set up with a 121 head with a 288 degree cam 10.5 to 1 Mahle pistons larger valves, and a good port job, with a stock injection pump there is enough adjustment there with the stock unit, but buy no means was it running a 310+ degree cam! Of course there is finding the parts to make the unit work on a m30 block, maybe you can use some 2002tii parts with a pump from a Porsche? Your going to do some fabrication work here, or you can just pay someone the $15,000 to buy the real deal when there is a e-bay auction...
 
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