Better picture
Windshield help please please please!
- Thread starter kasbatts
- Start date
Hey guys, someone with a screen out at the moment.
I'm still after the measurement across the base of the screen opening please.
Taken directly above the front edge of the dash from pinch weld to pinch weld
Thanks
Steve
I'm still after the measurement across the base of the screen opening please.
Taken directly above the front edge of the dash from pinch weld to pinch weld
Thanks
Steve
oz73csi
Member
can get it for you tomorrow if you can post a picture showing exactly the measurement you need
will try and a picture taken tonight
Cheers Aussie
Cheers Aussie
jmackro
Well-Known Member
I can't say that your old screen wasn't trimmed, but I don't think that is a common procedure. When my screen cracked a few years ago, I got a replacement through the dealer, and it went right in. I had that one out several years later when the car was painted, and the installer had little difficulty getting it back in. I'm puzzled why your original glass no longer fits.
Me to !
Very frustrating
Car is 99.99% finished, and now the whole project has come to a screaming halt, until I get this sorted, it's not going anywhere.
Still waiting for my glass guy to come back with another glass guy to have a second go at it, if they don't succeed it will be "glass trimming time"
Have done some research on this, options are,
Old fashioned cut and snap (very high risk of breakage)
Sanding the edge with a belt sander (relative low risk if done right)
Sandblast (also low-ish risk)
It would appear I need to taper from 1/2 way down the sides of the screen 0-4 mm at the bottom, also need to take some of the bottom corners as well I think
oz73csi
Member
I can't see the picture so I'm not sure , but for what it's worth I've got 1395?
Honolulu
Well-Known Member
Difficulties in fitting a new screen, or refitting the old screen after a period of time out of the car, have come up with some regularity in this list. I believe someone once spoke of the flexibility of the car's dimensions, particularly with narrow A-pillars and lacking a screen to hold things in place. IIRC Carl Nelson commented that flexibility was in fact exactly the reason things would be difficult.
I would myself guess that over the six years the car was without a screen, and part of that time without fenders, the body has sagged, twisted, or distorted in some manner that now manifests itself as a difficult screen install. I would suspect it may have something to do with the R&R of the fenders, but I'm no body man.
Where does my suggestion leave you, if true? In a difficult position, sorry to say. All I could venture would be to consider repositioning the fenders versus the difficulty of "adjusting" a new screen to fit.
We have heard stories of replacement glass being quite different dimensionally from OE, but apparently yours is quite a close match. Again I've not had to deal with this, though someday I probably will have to replace my windshield (as we call it). When that day comes, I'll have the pros remove and install, but only with the car solidly jacked and blocked to minimize potential body distortion. The matter of how the car is supported suggests that somehow the way your car is sitting, it may be adjusted to your benefit.
I would myself guess that over the six years the car was without a screen, and part of that time without fenders, the body has sagged, twisted, or distorted in some manner that now manifests itself as a difficult screen install. I would suspect it may have something to do with the R&R of the fenders, but I'm no body man.
Where does my suggestion leave you, if true? In a difficult position, sorry to say. All I could venture would be to consider repositioning the fenders versus the difficulty of "adjusting" a new screen to fit.
We have heard stories of replacement glass being quite different dimensionally from OE, but apparently yours is quite a close match. Again I've not had to deal with this, though someday I probably will have to replace my windshield (as we call it). When that day comes, I'll have the pros remove and install, but only with the car solidly jacked and blocked to minimize potential body distortion. The matter of how the car is supported suggests that somehow the way your car is sitting, it may be adjusted to your benefit.
Mario L.
Well-Known Member
I'm going to briefly add to this with some of our past experiences in several restorations.
As we all know BMW now sources of parts worldwide no longer just from Germany. To that end there has been a batch of bad windshields for the CS Coupe. Some have been to flat and others have been to curved.
On every restoration that is in our shop we test fit an original windshield with new rubber. The rubber gaskets are also varying in quality. We have had some pieces of glass that fit only with old gasket!
We often find that we need to move the glass side to side or up-and-down using large suction cups after it is fully installed get the rubber gasket in the correct location.
Some older cars used a steel clipped on rail to retain the gasket and the interior trim. Some new gaskets will not fit when these rails are in place.
Often the gasket curls under at the corners, never been able to figure out why, it must be the new rubber material, as this also happens on Porsche 911s......
This is why we do the test fit during the final stage of body work prior to paint. On almost every car we alter the radius under the gasket to keep it from curling under.
I will be in my shop on Sunday and take some accurate measurements from the two cars that we have presently apart and in the reassembly stage.
Mario L.
VSR1.com
As we all know BMW now sources of parts worldwide no longer just from Germany. To that end there has been a batch of bad windshields for the CS Coupe. Some have been to flat and others have been to curved.
On every restoration that is in our shop we test fit an original windshield with new rubber. The rubber gaskets are also varying in quality. We have had some pieces of glass that fit only with old gasket!
We often find that we need to move the glass side to side or up-and-down using large suction cups after it is fully installed get the rubber gasket in the correct location.
Some older cars used a steel clipped on rail to retain the gasket and the interior trim. Some new gaskets will not fit when these rails are in place.
Often the gasket curls under at the corners, never been able to figure out why, it must be the new rubber material, as this also happens on Porsche 911s......
This is why we do the test fit during the final stage of body work prior to paint. On almost every car we alter the radius under the gasket to keep it from curling under.
I will be in my shop on Sunday and take some accurate measurements from the two cars that we have presently apart and in the reassembly stage.
Mario L.
VSR1.com
The photo with your measurements is difficult to read, but I went to my garage and compared the figures with my CSL project which is in the rotisserie right now.
The horizontal opening is 1395mm at the widest
The vertical opening in the center is 690mm (light opening). Your photo says 731mm and that must be between the curvatures or profiles where the edge of the rubber seal ends. On my car it´s 730mm
200mm to the right from center it´s 685mm from lip to lip (727 between curvature)
400mm to the right from center it´s 665mm from lip to lip (712 between curvature)
500mm to the right from center it´s 630mm from lip to lip (667 between curvature)
I did this with a carpenters rule. A tailor measure tape would be a better tool, but I didn´t have one at hand.
I replaced the screen on my CS a few months ago after a total restoration with bending and sagging. I laid the window in the window frame without the rubber. The frame was a bit smaller than the window (I think that is correct) but the important part was that the edge of the window followed the edge of the frame without any major gap. Three men worked hours to fit the window and it sits perfect.
I advice you not to do anything with the glass, it will crack! Grind the steel or use hydraulic tools if you need to twist or bend the frame.
The horizontal opening is 1395mm at the widest
The vertical opening in the center is 690mm (light opening). Your photo says 731mm and that must be between the curvatures or profiles where the edge of the rubber seal ends. On my car it´s 730mm
200mm to the right from center it´s 685mm from lip to lip (727 between curvature)
400mm to the right from center it´s 665mm from lip to lip (712 between curvature)
500mm to the right from center it´s 630mm from lip to lip (667 between curvature)
I did this with a carpenters rule. A tailor measure tape would be a better tool, but I didn´t have one at hand.
I replaced the screen on my CS a few months ago after a total restoration with bending and sagging. I laid the window in the window frame without the rubber. The frame was a bit smaller than the window (I think that is correct) but the important part was that the edge of the window followed the edge of the frame without any major gap. Three men worked hours to fit the window and it sits perfect.
I advice you not to do anything with the glass, it will crack! Grind the steel or use hydraulic tools if you need to twist or bend the frame.
John Buchtenkirch
Well-Known Member
I’ve got like 42 years into the auto body, restoration & sheet metal trades, almost 20 of them as a heavy man (structural collision work) doing heavy hits for other shops which worked out well for me because I was a much better welder than I ever was a painter. I only mention my credentials because I just don’t buy into this idea that the windshield doesn’t fit because the car is bent / sagged from improper jacking or jack stand location. If the doors close properly and fit correctly I have to believe the body is close enough for the windshield to go in. I agree with Mario in post #29, the problem is almost surely the windshield outline dimensions or curve is incorrect. The rubber gasket is suspect too. There is also the possibility that the glass installers don’t have much experience with rubber gasket installs, most younger guys only know the more modern glue in type.
Measuring an odd shaped opening is almost impossible. The only measurements that would mean anything to me would be the highest point (the middle), the widest point (just above the lower corners) and comparing the diagonals (upper R. corner to lower L. corner compared to upper L. corner to lower R. corner) to see if they are the same. Even with those absolute measurements you could have 6 guys measure them and come up with 3 or 4 different measurements. There seems to be some interpretation when doing measurements, I don’t trust them unless I do all of them myself.
If it was my coupe I’d get some 1/8” flat stock and cut 3 or 4 pieces to fit in the windshield opening vertically. I’d cover the flat stock with duct tape so the windshield wouldn’t get scratched and then lay the glass in the opening. Then I’d use wood shims on the bottom to center the glass vertically in the opening. Then I’d study the gap around the glass to see if it’s consistent and also study if the curve of the glass seems to fit the car. Hint, it would be nice if you had a piece of an old gasket you could cut so you could see a sectional view of it…….. it would help give you a better understanding of the relationship of the body to the glass. Another helpful check would be laying the new glass on top of the old one that’s removed from the car, paper in-between to avoid scratches.
Drooping gasket corners happen because the corner isn’t molded into the gasket, when the rubber gasket swings a corner the outside edge stretches, by the edge rolling under it can be in a position that’s shorter, thus reliving some of the stretch caused stress. Usually the sheet metal at the corners holds the gasket up unless the windshield is cut a bit shy in the corners. I have had some luck lifting the edge of the gasket and putting 3M dum dum (strip caulking) under it to hold it up. I hope some of this helps & good luck, I will be dealing with the same problems :cry: if I paint my coupe or change the windshield. ~ John Buchtenkirch
Measuring an odd shaped opening is almost impossible. The only measurements that would mean anything to me would be the highest point (the middle), the widest point (just above the lower corners) and comparing the diagonals (upper R. corner to lower L. corner compared to upper L. corner to lower R. corner) to see if they are the same. Even with those absolute measurements you could have 6 guys measure them and come up with 3 or 4 different measurements. There seems to be some interpretation when doing measurements, I don’t trust them unless I do all of them myself.
If it was my coupe I’d get some 1/8” flat stock and cut 3 or 4 pieces to fit in the windshield opening vertically. I’d cover the flat stock with duct tape so the windshield wouldn’t get scratched and then lay the glass in the opening. Then I’d use wood shims on the bottom to center the glass vertically in the opening. Then I’d study the gap around the glass to see if it’s consistent and also study if the curve of the glass seems to fit the car. Hint, it would be nice if you had a piece of an old gasket you could cut so you could see a sectional view of it…….. it would help give you a better understanding of the relationship of the body to the glass. Another helpful check would be laying the new glass on top of the old one that’s removed from the car, paper in-between to avoid scratches.
Drooping gasket corners happen because the corner isn’t molded into the gasket, when the rubber gasket swings a corner the outside edge stretches, by the edge rolling under it can be in a position that’s shorter, thus reliving some of the stretch caused stress. Usually the sheet metal at the corners holds the gasket up unless the windshield is cut a bit shy in the corners. I have had some luck lifting the edge of the gasket and putting 3M dum dum (strip caulking) under it to hold it up. I hope some of this helps & good luck, I will be dealing with the same problems :cry: if I paint my coupe or change the windshield. ~ John Buchtenkirch
Have a look guys
http://youtu.be/qAGbFidkSAU
You know, the more I look at this I recon its the screen that's not right, not saying it's correct, but the car looks and measures pretty square and true, after 40 years of being copied and re manufactured by a bunch of different company's all over the world, I certainly wouldn't be surprised that the screens get bigger here and there and all out of shape.
http://youtu.be/qAGbFidkSAU
You know, the more I look at this I recon its the screen that's not right, not saying it's correct, but the car looks and measures pretty square and true, after 40 years of being copied and re manufactured by a bunch of different company's all over the world, I certainly wouldn't be surprised that the screens get bigger here and there and all out of shape.
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Great video. Does BMW NZ take ownership of the part not fitting? They may argue that in the 70s these cars were assembled by Turkish workers in Germany so why not making the parts in Turkey.
Anyway, it feels like wearing some racing goggles and driving it without the windshield!
Anyway, it feels like wearing some racing goggles and driving it without the windshield!
News!
Screen guys been back this afternoon, decided to fit the new screen in the car without the mouldings, it did go in, but very clearly not the right shape, We decided to have another go at fitting the original screen, this was done without the mouldings as well, shape wasn't marvellous but better than the new screen, they took a bit of the top corners with a sander and re installed with the trim, happy to say its in the car and looks pretty nice, although the screen itself is not a good one, it has funny marks on it like you get sometimes from when plastic has stuck to glass, has sort of etched into the glass, they window guys said they see this from time to time, the plastic protective sheet or plastic bag they put the new screens in somehow reacts with the glass??
My glass guy it taking the new screen we got in back to BMW for a refund, as I said above, we believe it is clearly not the right shape.
As a matter of interest, what brands or makes are your windscreens other than the original? Am I right in assuming that "Sekurat" was the OEM? And can you still get these?
Thanks
Steve
Screen guys been back this afternoon, decided to fit the new screen in the car without the mouldings, it did go in, but very clearly not the right shape, We decided to have another go at fitting the original screen, this was done without the mouldings as well, shape wasn't marvellous but better than the new screen, they took a bit of the top corners with a sander and re installed with the trim, happy to say its in the car and looks pretty nice, although the screen itself is not a good one, it has funny marks on it like you get sometimes from when plastic has stuck to glass, has sort of etched into the glass, they window guys said they see this from time to time, the plastic protective sheet or plastic bag they put the new screens in somehow reacts with the glass??
My glass guy it taking the new screen we got in back to BMW for a refund, as I said above, we believe it is clearly not the right shape.
As a matter of interest, what brands or makes are your windscreens other than the original? Am I right in assuming that "Sekurat" was the OEM? And can you still get these?
Thanks
Steve
John Buchtenkirch
Well-Known Member
Steve, well that is certainly good news :grin::grin::grin:. Did you determine if the curve of the glass was wrong or was it the outline dimensions ? Those damned “FAKE PARTS” are ruining the automotive repair business, all the mechanics in my area are disgusted :-( by the poor quality of the parts available to them & want to get out of the business. The suppliers say that’s all that’s available to them at the warehouse, many of the better parts manufacturers have gone out of business. A very sad situation. ~ John Buchtenkirch
Hi John,
It would appear a bit of both, the bottom corners would have needed trimming, as well as tapering the sides of the screen slightly, the curve side to side was too flat at the top of the screen, this caused the top corners to sit out away from the body by about 4mm, stretching the rubber, would not have got the aluminium trim to sit it the rubber like this, all in all very disappointing, I hope others don't have the same problem.
The guys were saying they have no end of trouble with reproduction stuff for all sorts of cars, so it looks like just another nail in the coffin of quality!
It would appear a bit of both, the bottom corners would have needed trimming, as well as tapering the sides of the screen slightly, the curve side to side was too flat at the top of the screen, this caused the top corners to sit out away from the body by about 4mm, stretching the rubber, would not have got the aluminium trim to sit it the rubber like this, all in all very disappointing, I hope others don't have the same problem.
The guys were saying they have no end of trouble with reproduction stuff for all sorts of cars, so it looks like just another nail in the coffin of quality!
Hi John,
It would appear a bit of both, the bottom corners would have needed trimming, as well as tapering the sides of the screen slightly, the curve side to side was too flat at the top of the screen, this caused the top corners to sit out away from the body by about 4mm, stretching the rubber, would not have got the aluminium trim to sit it the rubber like this, all in all very disappointing, I hope others don't have the same problem.
The guys were saying they have no end of trouble with reproduction stuff for all sorts of cars, so it looks like just another nail in the coffin of quality!
It would appear a bit of both, the bottom corners would have needed trimming, as well as tapering the sides of the screen slightly, the curve side to side was too flat at the top of the screen, this caused the top corners to sit out away from the body by about 4mm, stretching the rubber, would not have got the aluminium trim to sit it the rubber like this, all in all very disappointing, I hope others don't have the same problem.
The guys were saying they have no end of trouble with reproduction stuff for all sorts of cars, so it looks like just another nail in the coffin of quality!
Tom P
Well-Known Member
Hi Steve,
I experienced the same with a new BMW windshield from Turkey. The install was attempted using pro installers on two coupes on two occasions but it wouldn't fit either one.
I spoke to a BMW employee at Oktoberfest responsible for vintage parts about this issue and he said a few millimeters can create a big challenge. He half jokingly said they have many pieces of glass to choose from for their in-house restorations so there's no issue.
I resorted to buying a new one from Pro-Source Glass (no affiliation). It's a knock off but it went in without much effort. It was still work to get it in but the challenge with this one was getting the trim strip to fully seat all the way around as opposed to getting the glass to fit. The trim has such a shallow lip on it, its hard to get it to hold onto the rubber.
Tom P
'71 2800CS
I experienced the same with a new BMW windshield from Turkey. The install was attempted using pro installers on two coupes on two occasions but it wouldn't fit either one.
I spoke to a BMW employee at Oktoberfest responsible for vintage parts about this issue and he said a few millimeters can create a big challenge. He half jokingly said they have many pieces of glass to choose from for their in-house restorations so there's no issue.
I resorted to buying a new one from Pro-Source Glass (no affiliation). It's a knock off but it went in without much effort. It was still work to get it in but the challenge with this one was getting the trim strip to fully seat all the way around as opposed to getting the glass to fit. The trim has such a shallow lip on it, its hard to get it to hold onto the rubber.
Tom P
'71 2800CS
Well Tom, I guess that confirms it, the Turkish made screens are rubbish, it's a real shame BMW are peddling these through there parts dept's.
Not sure what direction I'm going to go from here, there aren't any suppliers down here that have these screens, that's why we ended up at BMW, so I guess I will have to get one in myself, maybe from WN? Anyone know what brand/make there are?
Not sure what direction I'm going to go from here, there aren't any suppliers down here that have these screens, that's why we ended up at BMW, so I guess I will have to get one in myself, maybe from WN? Anyone know what brand/make there are?
John Buchtenkirch
Well-Known Member
Big greed problem with the importers & parts handles, they all want to make big profits so they buy from 3rd world countries that have cheap labor but lack the expertise and or equipment to do the job right. I bought dot approved brake hoses for my A6 Quattro from World Pack and they delaminated & blew out in 26 months. It turned out they were made in Turkey :shock:.
I’d like to see a law :idea: that the country manufacturing the part would have to be written on the boxes in highly visible ½” letters and all internet sales require the country of origin stated by law. I think that might help the quality manufactures stay in business. ~ John Buchtenkirch
I’d like to see a law :idea: that the country manufacturing the part would have to be written on the boxes in highly visible ½” letters and all internet sales require the country of origin stated by law. I think that might help the quality manufactures stay in business. ~ John Buchtenkirch