1973 3.0CS Question?

[jranmann]

I wonder what this car went for...? Could this be Stan's car?...or perhaps someone posting here now owns it?

http://tmccaskill.googlepages.com/1973bmw3.0cs

This seems an ideal fuel delivery set up IMHO and have considered this myself...

Were the early CSL's a tri-carb set up or is that an Alpina manifold on the rebuilt 3.6 here or just how was this intake manifold set-up achieved?
(note the nice stainless/ceramic exhaust too)

It also appears in this underside photo that the back of the deep section of the oil pan is awfully close to the engine cross/frame member support...

Aside: A lower front end does look nicer and I was also wondering the other day if a dry sump oil system (as in the Corvettte Z06) might be
another solution to the issue if one wanted to transplant say an S38 engine into the 3.0's engine bay without the additional weight and hassle
of welding 'impact' shields all over the underside...I would rather customize/flatten my oil pan's sump on the welding bench nicely rather
than do the same on some road somewhere in a more uncontrolled situation...!

Cheers!

Ran

 

[acat2002]

If memory serves me, Stan's car has red leather interior. THis car is stunning though!

 

[jranmann]

If memory serves me, Stan's car has red leather interior. THis car is stunning though!

It certainly is! It's nice to see what can be done ... especially if one has a
'money tree' outside their back door!

Cheers!

 

[acat2002]

One question though....why go through the effort of MSD ignition, ceramic-coated headers and 3X webbers and leave the 5-blade fan?
Sorry, I'm just jealous!

 

[jranmann]

One question though....why go through the effort of MSD ignition, ceramic-coated headers and 3X webbers and leave the 5-blade fan?
Sorry, I'm just jealous!

Likely he was numerically superstitious?
:mrgreen:

and if so he could order the 11 blade fan for a mere $20, as opposed to the mere 9 blade!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-...rQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_537wt_1167

 

[chicane]

This car was on eBay a year or so ago if memory serves. I can't remember if it sold or not....anyone?

 

[jranmann]

I am now convinced that someday EVERYTHING will have at some point in it's lifespan been on e-bay!

Hmmm...Aside from the beauty of the beast can anyone answer my technical questions about the 3 carb set-up?

 

[Mario L.]

This seems an ideal fuel delivery set up IMHO and have considered this myself...

Were the early CSL's a tri-carb set up or is that an Alpina manifold on the rebuilt 3.6 here or just how was this intake manifold set-up achieved?
(note the nice stainless/ceramic exhaust too)

It also appears in this underside photo that the back of the deep section of the oil pan is awfully close to the engine cross/frame member support...

Aside: A lower front end does look nicer and I was also wondering the other day if a dry sump oil system (as in the Corvettte Z06) might be
another solution to the issue if one wanted to transplant say an S38 engine into the 3.0's engine bay without the additional weight and hassle
of welding 'impact' shields all over the underside...I would rather customize/flatten my oil pan's sump on the welding bench nicely rather
than do the same on some road somewhere in a more uncontrolled situation...!

Cheers!

Ran

Ran,

This triple Weber set up is made from what looks to be Cannon manifolds with the hokey throttle linkage. Not to offend anyone that has this linkage, from my own experience it just isn't strong enough and accurate enough to keep 3 Webers running synched for long. Note that the builder used the #2 cylinder mounting point for the throttle pivot as a vacuum port for the brake booster and had to build the red piece to support the pivot.

AFAIK a triple side draft set up was never factory installed. Alpina built the one as on Duane Sword's car. If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me!

Webers are a race carb, ideally suited to wide open throttle use, the CAN be tuned to run well on the street but at lower engine speeds are not fuel efficient or clean for the engine. The velocity of air through the short runners doesn't atomize the gasoline well, and the engine has to deal with lots of combustion by products, requiring more frequent oil changes and resulting in increased wear.

Air filters are also a problem with the limited space, Alpina solved this with their large aluminum plenum that allowed the use of the CSi air filter box. This plenum also serves to quiet the loud Webers and functions the same as the M88 / S38 intake plenum.


The view from the bottom does look like the clearance to the subframe is close. I think it's more of a result of the picture. The clearance here is really 13-15 mm (1/2" - 5/8") and the shape of the pan tapers back as it rises, and the sbframe does the same.

The dry sump is a nice solution, except that on a street car there is very limited space to install the tank, the pump and an AC Compressor along with the AC Receiver dryer and lines. When BMW built the racing CSLs with the 3.5 M49 twin cam these cars were set up with dry sump systems and the tank was located in the trunk, and the oil coolers are in the large rear flares (Gruppe 5).

I'd rather reconstruct the front subframe and increase the oil pan volume with a shallower pan , modified pump pick up, while also increasing front chassis stiffness. This would result in better ground clearance and performance.

 

[jranmann]

Hello again Mario...as you might be able to tell, I am doing my homework as we discussed on the phone last week.

Thanks for your further insights here too. What we all might agree upon is the quality of the paint work here. It's not easy (with modern materials anyway) to achieve that deep look, on a solid color without the over over-glossing effect that enamels achieve well, but for other reasons on more recent cars.

Per your carb comments above, my assumption is that then that the carbureted CSL's (the first 169) were also the twin Zenith set up as previous? The Zenith is a more street friendly unit IMHO and it is a shame that so many were lost along the way. I also agree Weber's are often not the answer on a street car.

Would you happen to have access (and could you show us) a photo of Duane's Alpina engine and carburetor/linkage set up? And just where did the manifold/linkage come from? If it was on the base car originally could this have been one of the reasons he thought it was and original B1/2 car from' the get-go? (interesting story there, for future discussions)

I suppose that any final analysis might determine that fuel injection on a Coupe might just be the way to go with a M30 motor. I just wanted to make sure that I had exhausted all possibility of using them on my project. (nothing is more costly than the lack of proper research?)

Integrating the Electrical Control units etc is not so difficult of an issue to resolve in these Coupes? IMO FI has no better results overall (problems elsewhere) without the use of the proper engine management systems brought making the cars more fuel efficient, cleaner burning and thank goodnss without need for the EGR's and air pump systems used originally to reduce emissions in the early 70's cars.

 

[Stan]

That exterior is beautiful. If I had the $$, Mario could make my car look like that. Not sure about the triple Webers. I am happy with the twin 32/36s.

Yes my coupe has a red leather interior and no it is not for sale. In fact I just got done driving around on a beautiful cool NH afternoon!

 

[shanon]

Ok fellas,

Question: is that a Tii booster or the larger stock E9 unit, I can't tell, it looks like the stock unit. Are those 40s or 45s.....?

I have the carbs, those Ramflows and manifolds and a motor built (big cam and valves) and currently facing the booster clearance issue. From what I can tell I also have these exact manifolds (Cannon's you say?)

I can attest to Super Mario's comment on the linkage, looks like the Redline set-up an it is kinda flimsy (ie: the set screws can slip and arms can flex). Our weber guru made a custom, much stouter set up for my brother's tri-carb E9 racer. Now if he can only duplicate it for me....

Currently running 38/38s which are great until about 5400rpm, then you crave the triples...which are also just bitchen to look at IMO...;-)

-shanon

 

[jranmann]

Shannon....i'd ask Tony Mann.
Also, did you see the link I posted for the rest of the pix on the advert ?
Here's a reverse engine comparment view.

http://tmccaskill.googlepages.com/1973bmw3.0cs

 

[Bill Riblett]

Ok fellas, Question: is that a Tii booster or the larger stock E9 unit, I can't tell, it looks like the stock unit. Are those 40s or 45s.....? -shanon

Looks like a stock E9 booster to me.

I'll try to measure, but I would guess the 2002tii booster is about an inch smaller in diameter. I have both.

On my car, with triple 40s that Korman put on almost 30 years ago(!), those little Ramflow air filters are the only ones I have found that will fit alongside the booster.

I don't think there is a visual difference between DCOE 40s and 45s.

 

[jranmann]

I've seen several person's (not all are 'fellas'...) with the same booster issue and I had assumed it's the builder's desire to run say an e24 FI manifold set-up and stay somewhat original...yet why cannot one use a complete updated braking system (from the same e24) without the monster booster unit making conversion miserable on that particular front?

(I am planning similar conversion in the near future)

Cheers! (fill me in?)

Ran

 

[shanon]

That's what I thought too, looks like a big stock booster. My brother guessed it was the Tii unit (which he runs so he can run the DCOE velocity stacks).

Anybody know the going rate for a Tii booster per chance..?!

-shanon

 

[jranmann]

which he runs so he can run the DCOE velocity stacks

Thanks Shanon...are there any other reasons that I might with to prepare for?
btw: I queried 2002AD (nearby here in CA) just now on the availability and price for a tii booster.

Any ancillaries you need for the swap...prior to them returning my call?
Will let you know...

Ran

 

[Mario L.]

tii boosters can still be bought new . . . I've seen NOS units sell for over $600.00

But all this can be acheived with a standard 2002 booster . . .

Mario L.

 

[chicane]

Anybody know the going rate for a Tii booster per chance..?!

-shanon

Used...about $225-300 depending on the condition. If you can find one.

 

[shanon]

But all this can be acheived with a standard 2002 booster . . .
-Mario L.

Really? Then why do they say one needs the Tii booster and not just the regular.02 booster?
What's the difference between the too?

(I'm calling my brothers now to see if they still have their 2002 boosters laying around....!!!)

thx gang
-shanon

 

[Bill Riblett]

I've seen several person's (not all are 'fellas'...) with the same booster issue and I had assumed it's the builder's desire to run say an e24 FI manifold set-up and stay somewhat original...yet why cannot one use a complete updated braking system (from the same e24) without the monster booster unit making conversion miserable on that particular front?

(I am planning similar conversion in the near future)

Cheers! (fill me in?)

Ran

Short answer: swapping a 2002tii booster can be a bolt-in conversion. Installing the E28/E24 hydraulic stuff is going to require some fabrication of mounting brackets, etc.